D&D 5E Warlock problems

[that70'sgame]

Hello there, first time poster, long time reader here.

I'm looking into building a warlock with the tome pact feature for a campaign that's supposed to go all the way to level 20, but I'm pretty sure the campaign will see play only up to mid level. A CHA-based caster with high DEX on the side would be my prime choice, because we're playing a two player group (the other one is playing a half-dragon sorcerer), and I basically have to be able to hold myself in a fight and do skill monkey stuff on my own. The other guy won't be joining us every session, so being able to talk myself out of a dire situation is a plus.

I chose the warlock because I don't like the bard class (never have) and I just can't picture a bard I'd like to play in our setting. I chose tome pact because having access to all those rituals is just awesome. So, with that out of the way, here's the problem:

I figured I'd go Rogue 2 first for the skill and tool proficiencies, the weapon proficiencies, expertise and cunning action. That way, I'm able to disengage out of melee and continue blasting without disadvantage, or just use the rapier. Two options that I won't have going straight warlock, but I'm missing out on an ability raise and the level 20 warlock spell slot regeneration if the gods are kind and we actually play this campaign to the end. Plus, I won't have access to higher spell slots as early, which decreases the efficiency of a lot of warlock spells. I also don't like to drag that single sneak attack die around.

Do you think Rogue 2/Tome Warlock 18 is viable? Are there any better ways to build an allrounder with warlock as main class?

I'm looking forward to your answers.

 

[brehobit]

There have been a number of builds posted that create pretty solid warlock melee types. Mine is at https://docs.google.com/document/d/1s7vTgl1KRuR78BDTmMIdJDLbWaRs3RTLhx3CE6QLrDE/edit?usp=sharing

I've not looked into how to play a tome warlock. I'd probably stick with EB as the main attack and work to create ways that make melee hard for others. One example would be taking the ability to see in magical darkness and coming up with a way to cast darkness a lot (ideally without blowing a slot at higher levels) or flight or anything else that keeps you away from melee types. I can see the two levels of rogue too. Pretty nice really, but at a fairly steep price.

 

[Mandragola]

Creating any character for solo play is always going to be tricky. You really can’t cover all bases.
I’m not sure rogue levels are the answer. Making a bladelock so you are relatively happy in melee might be one option. I think sneak attack only works with weapons, not spells, so a rogue/warlock would probably be better off using some kind of weapon to hit people, rather than eldritch blast.

Having lots of skills would probably be helpful to be an all-rounder. If you want rogue skills then you could take the urchin background, which gives stealth and proficiency with thieves’ tools, or criminal. Being a variant human or half-elf also gives access to extra skills. Being an elf gives perception, which is probably a good thing since your wisdom is unlikely to be amazing.

I’d give some thought to being a bard. The multiclass caster rules are weird and I’m not sure I understand them fully, but I think that effectively you’d end up casting as a bard with a level of all your warlock and bard levels added together, plus also get your warlock spell slots. I think you’d be able to cast warlock or bard spells with any slot. The problem would be the actual spells you’d know as I’m not sure what you’d be able to pick up. From what I can tell, it kind of looks like you get pretty much the best of both worlds. Multiclassing into bard also lets you pick up any two skills and the stats are a good match for a warlock. Valour bards pick up martial weapon, shield and medium armour proficiency at 3^rd, which would be useful for any kind of warlock.

Bards do confuse me from a “fluff” perspective. I’m not really sure how their magic is meant to work really. Blues Legend Robert Johnson said he’d sold his soul at a crossroads in exchange for his guitar skills and that would be quite a fun character background!

 

[Fion]

My thoughts as well if I were going caster-focused Warlock (Chain or Tome) multi-classing in Bard is a strong choice for the increased spell slots, valorous bard and heals, especially as a solo character. As much as the OP says they dislike bard, they are a great choice for his needs. You'd also get access to some healing and a decent finesse weapon for when your forced into melee (being solo). The simple fact is with Warlock if you want to focus on its caster qualities it's much better to get at least 1 level in another spellcasting class simply so you can use the multiclass spell slot chart instead of the much more restrictive Warlock one. With 3 levels in bard you'd also still unlock a single 9th level slot for those few but potent spells like True Polymorph.

For a spellcaster warlock, I'd personally go with something like this;

Half-Elf Folk Hero Valor Bard 3/Tomelock 3

Str 10, Dex 13(14), Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 14 (16)

 

[Kobold Stew]

The simple fact is with Warlock if you want to focus on its caster qualities it's much better to get at least 1 level in another spellcasting class simply so you can use the multiclass spell slot chart instead of the much more restrictive Warlock one. With 3 levels in bard you'd also still unlock a single 9th level slot for those few but potent spells like True Polymorph.

I'm pretty sure this isn't how multi classing works for the Warlock --

there's no real benefit in slowing yourself down with other levels.

Half-elf is a good choice (+2 Charisma, and two skills); tome-pact gives you rituals, which are fun and helpful. Pick a background that gives you thieves' tools (either urchin, or customize one with a feature you like; but the tools will help).

I think you should stick straight Warlock; you need the power and your versatility comes form the invocations.

EDIT: plus, if you do only go ten levels, you don't want to spend half your time messing around with other classes. Play what you want!

 

[Mandragola]

I think that single-class could work fine too. If you're worried about melee then pact of the blade makes a lot of sense. You then don't really have to worry about proficiencies since you're always proficient with your pact blade.

Half elf is certainly best for warlock stats, plus you also get those extra skills to play with. I'd start with 8, 15(16), 13(14), 10, 10, 14(16) for a bladelock. For any other kind you could drop dex to 14 and raise int and wisdom to 12.

 

[Fion]

I'm pretty sure this isn't how multi classing works for the Warlock

This is true, the PHB is extremely vague when it comes to spellcasting slots with warlock. Hell the warlock is the only class not mentioned in the Spell Slots section of the Multiclass rules. Until there is clarification for this oversight I will assume it works as all the others, at least for my group. Each group works differently after all.

 

[Kobold Stew]

This is true, the PHB is extremely vague when it comes to spellcasting slots with warlock. Hell the warlock is the only class not mentioned in the Spell Slots section of the Multiclass rules. Until there is clarification for this oversight I will assume it works as all the others, at least for my group. Each group works differently after all.

Check again -- the PhB is pretty specific on exactly this; bottom of the page, right column: if you have both spell casting and pact magic, you use each class's spell slots, but can use the other class's spells. You do not use the multi class spell caster table.

 

[Mandragola]

Well as I said, the rules confuse me.

There is a section in the multiclass rules on pact magic. It says "If you have both the spellcasting class feature and the Pact Magic class feature from the warlock class, you can use the spell slots you gain from the pact magic feature to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the spellcasting class feature, and you can use the spell slots you gain from the spellcasting class feature to cast warlock spells you know."

So it's actually pretty straightforward. You don't need to look at the multiclass slots thing at all because warlock levels are not counted towards it. You work out how many spells you know, prepare and cast separately as a warlock and as a paladin but once the spells are prepared you can cast them using either set of slots. I had misread this and thought warlock levels were counted for multiclass casting, which would have been kind of insane.

This is fairly good. At high level you can use a low-level paladin slot to cast hex, not wasting a 5th level warlock slot. I'm a bit unsure about whether you could prepare a 5th level paladin spell like banishing smite once you reached level 9 warlock, even if you were just a level 2 paladin. Could be a little broken if a level 11 character cast a spell that a single-class paladin couldn't do before level 17! As a DM I don't think I'd allow that, only allowing a character to prepare paladin spells that he could cast as a paladin. It's clear though that the same character could use a warlock slot to cast healing word (if he'd prepared it as one of his paladin spells for that day) and it would heal 5D8+cha. I'm pretty sure he could only use paladin slots for smiting things, not warlock ones.

I've actually got a sort of a character concept using this mini from enigma. He'd be a dragonborn - probably a bronze one I think or gold to be the banished gold dragon from hoard of the dragon queen. Be a paladin at level 1 with stats something like 17, 8, 14, 8, 10, 16 and then multiclass to fey pact warlock. Not sure when you'd do that really but you'd want to hit level 5 at the same time as level 3 of warlock, so you got your pact blade and could stick thirsting blade on it straight away. At some point you'd probably want to pick up a feat with +1 strength like heavy armour master - or you could be a human and start with it.

Not sure what paladin oath is best. Fey warlock/oath of ancients paladin makes sense and I also quite like the idea of a character who gets his soul bound to a daemon against his will, then takes up the oath of vengeance to fight back - though that character might want to start out as a warlock for background purposes. I think mechanically a devotion paladin works very well with a fey warlock, since the channel divinity feature lets you add your cha bonus to hit. At 6th level with 3/3 pala/lock you'd be able to get 2 attacks with +9 to hit with 3 strenth, 3 cha and 3 proficiency bonus. Damage would be 3d6 (greatsword and hex)+3 for strength. That's actually good enough for it to be worth looking very seriously at Great weapon master.

Oath of vengeance is really cool but I think it's not a great combo with warlock, since hex and Vow of Emnity are both bonus actions. Actually, so is the bonus attack from great weapon master.

 

[Snapdragyn]

For dealing with blasting with EB & solo survivability, consider the Misty Visions invocation instead of the standard Devil's Own Sight/ casting Darkness combo.

- Misty Visions allows you to cast Silent Image at will vs. Darkness using up a (very limited) spell slot

- you can use Silent Image to surround yourself in heavy fog similar to the Fog Cloud spell - presto, heavily obscured, opponents at disadvantage against you unless they perceive that the fog is just an illusion

- because you know it is an illusion, you can see through it just fine - thus you have advantage on your attacks against the opponent who cannot see you

I'd also consider going Human for the starting feat to grab Medium Armor proficiency. While armor type in general doesn't matter much if your Dex is maxed (running the numbers, Heavy w/o Dex vs. Light w/ maxed Dex only differ by 1), the better armor will help for survivability before max Dex is reached, and the shield is a pure gain - +2 to AC, more if you get a magic one.

 

[Mandragola]

Medium armour is a tricky one. It's quite good, but with 16 dex it's actually not better than mage armour - which you can cast at will at 2nd level.

A shield is another matter. For a book or chain warlock it's seriously useful. A blade warlock wants to hold a blade in one hand, which makes life complicated when want to cast a spell if there's a shield in the other hand.

Of course another great thing about medium armour is that you don't really need much dex. Your book/chain warlock could take dex 14, scale armour, a shield and have AC 18. Awesome for a level 1 caster.

 

[Fion]

Thanks for the clarification guys. I read the pact magic section but it isn't laid out very clearly.

If I might ask, I have a group member who wants to roll up a Chain Pact Feylock. Any thoughts on a good build as his character advances? Right now all he has down is that he envisions a pseudodragon wrapped around his shoulders haha.

 

[Snapdragyn]

Depends a lot on what role he wants to play.

Battlefield Control? Misty Visions invocation, make use of the Fey Presence ability, Darkness, Hold Person (scales decently with additional targets at higher slots), Hunger of Hadar, Hypnotic Pattern - lots of choices.

Sniper? Misty Visions again to shroud yourself in heavy 'fog' (& thus gain advantage on EBs), Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast, take the Spell Sniper &/or War Caster feat(s) (makes going human especially appealing, as well as burning the variant feat on Medium Armor so Dex can be largely ignored). Spells Hex (obviously), & maybe Armor of Agathys &/or Hellish Rebuke for when things get close - make them PAY for hitting you.

Buffer/Debuffer? Not an easy role for a 'lock due to low # of spell slots, but it could be used a bit in the right campaign. Protection from Evil & Good (but very limited on targets w/ low spell slots), Invisibility (better, since it scales # of targets), Dispel Magic, Fly, etc. Really, the slot limits are going to kill you here, though. I'd only recommend as a secondary role to Sniper, where you're most likely to have spells available since your main schtick is done with 1 cantrip + invocations.

Does he want a 'face' role? Take the invocation to gain Deception & Persuasion. Consider the Enthrall spell.

Does he want a 'stealth'/scout role? Plenty of ways he could do that himself, or just have the pet go look around. Maybe the Voice of the Master invocation for delivering messages to people that are hard to get to.

Remember that invocations and spells can both be switched out whenever new ones are gained, so think about what works NOW and reassess as the character levels. Perfect example: Armor of Agathys is pretty weak in comparison to Hellish Rebuke at level 1, IMO. By level 3, however, it's pulled ahead - & it just keeps getting better. If you want an 'oh no you DIDN'T!' spell, start off with Hellish, then swap out around 3rd.

 

[Fion]

Thanks Snapdragyn, I'll relay this info. If I know his style well he'll probably end up with a scout/sniper mix. He's already chosen the Criminal background largely for that sweet, sweet Thieve's Tools proficiency haha.

 

[Christian]

I'm a bit unsure about whether you could prepare a 5th level paladin spell like banishing smite once you reached level 9 warlock, even if you were just a level 2 paladin. Could be a little broken if a level 11 character cast a spell that a single-class paladin couldn't do before level 17! As a DM I don't think I'd allow that, only allowing a character to prepare paladin spells that he could cast as a paladin. It's clear though that the same character could use a warlock slot to cast healing word (if he'd prepared it as one of his paladin spells for that day) and it would heal 5D8+cha. I'm pretty sure he could only use paladin slots for smiting things, not warlock ones.

Your first ruling is definitely correct. Multiclass characters know and prepare spells based on their level in a class, so your pactladin can only prepare banishing smite if he has at least 17 paladin levels.

The multiclass rules state that you can use your spell slots 'only to cast lower level spells' if you can't prepare spells of that level, so that seems to preclude using those higher-level slots to smite. But since a paladin with Branding Smite prepared could cast it with a higher-level warlock (or multiclass) slot to do extra damage with it, I don't see any issue with letting the pactladin just burn those slots for regular smites.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Sounds like this will be a solo campaign with occasional help. So, your character needs to be self-sufficient. Skills are important. You can't depend on others for healing.

I recommend:

Rogue 1 (for Expertise, skills, finesse weapons, sneak attack).
Warlock 3 (Pact of Chain for an Imp familiar--this gives you an ally to trigger sneak attack, and an invisible scout).
Rogue 2 (for Cunning Action)
Rogue 3 (for additional sneak attack die, and Arcane Trickster for versatility and access to Sleep)
Warlock X

Infernal Patron is probably best. Gives you access to high-damage spells and Dark One's Own Luck helps you make those clutch rolls. And at 14th level you can throw someone through Hell--that's pretty sweet.

Invocations: Voice of the Chain Master lets you get the most out of your familiar. Mask of Many Faces and Misty Visions are amazing tools for non-combat problem solving (though Arcane Trickster covers some of this by giving easy access to Disguise Self and Silent Image). Devil's Sight is of course amazing, and combos well with the Imp's ability.