D&D 5E Warlord as prestige class?

[El Mahdi]

Are you keeping statistics?
I'd love to see a breakdown of for/against, see if anyone shifts position, see if support changes, etc.

Still... 200 seems like a lot for the entire forum. That's feels like a lot of traffic. Unless it's spread out over multiple years with people coming and going.

Statistics? No. General feedback? Yes Compiling those kind of statistics from over 4,000 posts - data that would require in-depth reading of every single post, and a lot of "reading between the lines" - would take an impossibly prohibitive amount of time. I have however, gained a general sense of things from the feedback.

I happened to know the number participants because I made a list of everyone that's contributed to the threads in the Temporary Warlord Forum (plus one other thread that I found from 2013). I made the list so I could send out mentions/invitations after I post a working beta version of the project and start a final poll/feedback thread. I don't have statistics on each poster, but I can say that the majority have posted multiple times, and the ones doing the major posting probably number somewhere between 50 and 100.

There's at least 270 unique contributors to the threads in the Temporary Warlord Forum (including myself). I say "at least" because it's very possible I may have missed a few. There's 274 unique contributors if you also count moderation... However, I have no way of knowing if any of these are multiple accounts of the same user (sock puppets).

Here's the list for your perusal (270 from this forum, 290 total counting that other thread from 2013):

[sblock=Temporary Warlord Forum Participation List]
3e4ever ; 77IM AaronOfBarbaria ; AbdulAlhazred ; admcewen ; Aenghus ; Ahrimon; Ainulindalion ; airwalkrr ; Aldarc ; akr71 ; AmerginLiath ; Andor ; AntiStateQuixote; aramis erak ; Aribar ; Arnwolf ; Ashkelon ; Ashrym ; Athinar ; AtomicPope ; Azurewraith; Azzy ; Bawylie ; bedir than ; Bedrockgames ; bert1000 ; billd91 ; Blackbrrd ;Blackwarder ; Blue ; Bluenose ; brehobit ; BryonD ; Bupp ; Campbell ; CapnZapp; CaptainConundrum ; CaptainGemini ; Carlsen Chris ; casterblaster ; CasvalRemDeikun ; cbwjm ; ccooke ; Celebrim ; Celondon ChameleonX ; Charles Wright ; ChrisCarlson ; CM ; cmad1977; costermonger ; Creamsteak ; Crothian ; Cybit ; Dausuul ; Dayte ; dd.stevenson ; DEFCON 1 ; Delazar ; DersitePhantom ; Diffan ; discosoc ; D'karr ; Doc Klueless ; doctorbadwolf ; DonAdam ; Dragoslav ; Duganson ; EdL ; EditorBFG; Edwin Suijkerbuijk ; Eejit ; ehren37 ; Elfcrusher ; epithet ; erf_beto ; Eric V ; eryndel ; Evenglare ; ExploderWizard ; EzekielRaiden ; Fedge123 ; fendak ; FireLance ; Fishing_Minigame ; Flamestrike ; Flexor the Mighty! ; Forged Fury ; Fragsie ; Fralex ; FreeTheSlaves ; froth ; Gadget ; Galendril ; GameOgre ; Garthanos ; Ghost Matter ; Giltonio_Santos ; Gimul ; GMforPowergamers ; Gnashtooth ; Green1 ; GreenKarl ; Greg K ; GreyLord ; Grimmjow ; Grydan ; GX.Sigma ; Halivar ; HEEGZ ; Hemlock ; Henry ; Herobizkit ; Hussar; IchneumonWasp ; I'm A Banana ; Imaro ; Iosue ; Irennan ; JackOfAllTirades ; jacktannery ; jadrax ; Jaelommiss ; JamesTheLion ; JamesonCourage ; JasonZZ ; jayoungr ; JediGamemaster ; JeffB ; Jester Canuck ; jgsugden ; jodyjohnson ; Joe Liker ; JohnLynch ; Johnny3D3D ; KarinsDad ; kerbarian ; kerleth ; Kinak ; KingsRule77 ; Kirfalas ; Kobold Stew ; koga305 ; Lanefan ; Lanliss ; Leatherhead ; Libramarian ; Li Shenron ; lowkey13 ; Manbearcat ; MarkB ; MechaPilot ; Mecheon ; mellored ; Mephista ; Mercule ; MG.0 ; MichaelSomething; Miladoon ; Minigiant ; Mishihari Lord ; Mistwell ; MoogleEmpMog ; Mon ; MonkeezOnFire; MoonSong(Kaiilurker) ; MostlyDm ; Mouseferatu ; MoutonRustique ; Nemesis Destiny ; neobolts ; Neonchameleon ; Nifft ; nightspaladin ; nomotog ; n00bdragon ; Obryn ; Ohillion ; oknazevad ; Olgar Shiverstone ; Orlax ; Otterscrubber ; Pandamonium87 ; Paraxis ; PaulO. ; Pauln6 ; Pauper ; payn ; pemerton; peterka99 ; Pickles III ; Pickles JG ; pkt77242 ; pming ; pogre ; PopeYodaI ; Prickly ; procproc ; Psikerlord ; Psikerlord# ; (Psi)SeveredHead ; Quickleaf ; Raith5 ; raleel ; Ralif Redhammer ; Raloc ; Ranes ; RangerWickett ; Ratskinner ; redrick ; Rejuvenator ; Remathilis ; Ristamar ; RolenArcher ; Roland55 ; RPG_Tweaker ; Rune ; Rygar; Sacrosanct ; Saelorn ; Saeviomagy ; Sailor-Moon ; SailorNash ; Saplatt ; Satyrn ; Shades of Eternity ; shadowmane ; sheadunne ; Shasarak ; shidaku ; shintashi ; Shiroiken ; SigmaOne ; sleypy ; sleypy01 ; SpiderMonkey ; Staccat0 ; Staffan ; steeldragons ; steenan ; SteveC ; strider13x ; Strider1973 ; Sword of Spirit ; Talmek ; TerraDave ; TheCosmicKid ; The_Gneech ; TheHobgoblin ; The Human Target ; the Jester ; The Mirrorball Man ; The Myopic Sniper ; ThirdWizard ; Tia Nadiezja ; Tinker-TDC ; Tonguez ; Tony Vargas ; Tormyr ; TrippyHippy ; tsadkiel ; tuxgeo ; Twiggly the Gnome ; TwoSix ; Uchawi ; Ulorian ; UnadvisedGoose445 ; UngeheuerLich ; Us ; Valmarius; Warbringer ; was ; wedgeski; Wednesday Boy ; Wik ; WillDoyle ; Winterthorn ; Wuzzard ; Xeviat ; Yaarel ; Yunru ; Zalabim ; Zansy ; Zardnaar ; Zeuel ; ZickZak ; ZombieRoboNinja ; ZzarkLinux
[/sblock]

Out of curiosity then, what is your stance on giving it a new name? Or other variations/changes for the class like removing healing or replacing with other damage mitigation?

A different name? Absolutely, without a doubt, YES! I personally hate the name "Warlord"... It's incredibly tough though to come up with something else. There's been thread after thread right here at ENWorld since 4E came out trying to do exactly that; without much luck.

The problem is most potential names that carry enough impact or pizazz to sit beside other class names, either carry an exclusive military connotation or an exclusive civilian connotation.

But one that can be used for both and sound "Cool" enough to stand alone...

My personal favorite is Consul, but I'm probably alone in this.


As to healing vs. damage mitigation? I'm not for removing healing, but can see having some damage mitigation. Narratively, Inspirational Recovery with real HP's is the only thing that models the "Get Up Soldier" trope. I'm cool with mitigation, but only in addition to Inspirational Recovery (healing). IMO, changing to damage mitigation is an attempt to appease those that don't like Inspiration Recovery. It's more of the same mindset that lead to Rally only providing Temp HP rather than real HP. I will not engage in or accept appeasement as a design philosophy or prerequisite for inclusion.

 

[El Mahdi]

If that's how you want to phrase it, then mellored & Aldarc were clearly talking about that distinction, between the leader role (and what you're calling leadership) and the position of party leader (what you're calling Authority).

I wasn't reading Mellored's posts, so I don't know what he was saying or not saying about this. As to Aldarc, maybe he did make that distinction, maybe he didn't; but I asked him very pointedly to clarify what he was saying about this in case I was misreading him.

He instead responded with accusations and insults, a couple of crazy conspiracy claims, and a mandate bordering on bullying. So...

Common usage, even if it's a misconception, conflates leadership (the qualities of a good leader) with authority (being in the position to tell others what to do, be it legitimate or otherwise). I'm not sure that educating people about that distinction is the best way to get across the idea that choosing a Warlord shouldn't be taken as making the character the 'party leader,' nor giving the player any pretext to boss around other players.

It's become very clear that education is most certainly not the way to get that across to Aldarc. As for others that may be reading these threads, maybe it will help - maybe it won't.

Out of curiosity, what approach do you recommend?

 

[Tony Vargas]

Out of curiosity, what approach do you recommend?

I wish I knew of one that might actually work. You've seen how wordy and obtuse my posts tend to be. I'm no master of communication.

 

[El Mahdi]

I wish I knew of one that might actually work. You've seen how wordy and obtuse my posts tend to be. I'm no master of communication.

Yeah, me too.

There was a line in an episode of the West Wing where the President (Martin Sheen) said "Anyone in our house that only used one word when they could use ten just wasn't trying hard enough."

That pretty much sums me up also...

 

[Aldarc]

I wasn't reading Mellored's posts, so I don't know what he was saying or not saying about this. As to Aldarc, maybe he did make that distinction, maybe he didn't; but I asked him very pointedly to clarify what he was saying about this in case I was misreading him.

He instead responded with accusations and insults, a couple of crazy conspiracy claims, and a mandate bordering on bullying. So...

Actually, you didn't. I reread the thread just to make sure. In fact, I was the one who repeatedly asked you to re-read my posts, since your replies seem disconnected from what I was saying. But my previous post has attempted to extend the olive branch and to clarify my position.

It's become very clear that education is most certainly not the way to get that across to Aldarc.

You may want to consider other alternative explanations other than insulting my intelligence or claiming a failure in education.

 

[El Mahdi]

...my previous post has attempted to extend the olive branch...

Do you mean that this:

...you have badgered me with a walls of quote text and accusations...

...You repeatedly fail to listen...

...was extending an olive branch?

No. I don't think so.

You may want to consider other alternative explanations other than insulting my intelligence or claiming a failure in education.

What I said is only an insult to your intelligence if you choose to perceive it that way. Insult was not my intention, nor did I say anything close to what you implied.

I tried to educate. It didn't work. Therefore, based on previous attempts, it's a fair assumption that taking the approach of education with you is an approach that has a certainty of failure.

I made no implication as to why it failed. I do not know why it failed. I only know that it did fail.

Anything other than that is assumption.

Since I cannot think of an alternate approach, I have nothing more to say to you.

Good Day.

 

[Umbran]

It's become very clear that education is most certainly not the way to get that across to Aldarc.

If, as you claim below, you are not a great communicator, let me make this plain - that was insulting, and insulting folks is a good way to get the hairy eyeball from a moderator, which you probably don't want.

If you were considering continuing to make the discussion personal, please allow me to officially suggest you reconsider that tactic. It will not end well.

If I need to say more on the topic to make it clear, please take it to e-mail or PM with a moderator or admin. From here, we expect you to be respectful to others, even if you don't agree with them.

 

[Aldarc]

Do you mean that this:

...was extending an olive branch?

No. I don't think so.

Because I am willing to put that aside for a fresh start. I have clarified my position. Do you really have nothing more to say to that?

 

[El Mahdi]

Because I am willing to put that aside for a fresh start. I have clarified my position. Do you really have nothing more to say to that?

I won't ignore a desire for a fresh start.

If you will clarify your position without the previous insults, I will read and respond. If I find it insulting, I will not.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Y'know, I've read what both of you had to say on the topic - and, AFAICT, it's about the unfortunate connotations of the 4e 'Leader' role and the Warlord's abilities including 'Leadership' on some level. Aldarc wants to steer clear of 'leader' or 'leadership' as much as possible - it seems to me, even to the point of giving up appropriate Inspiring or 'command' based abilities (please correct me if I got that wrong or improperly shaded it) - thus avoiding the misunderstanding. El Mahdi seems to me to want to take the misrepresntations of the Warlord's 'leadership' abilities head-on, by emphasizing the distinction between Authority (a position as formal leader who gives orders and can have insubordination punished) which is not part of the class and Leadership (leadership skills, like inspiring and coordinating people), which is (again, correct me if I mis-understood you).