Warrior-Mage Prestige Classes: which are viable & which are not

[Voadam]

Might not help, but I'll throw in some 3rd party PrC's I've liked.

Green Steel Monk: Green Ronin
-A sect of monks that believe becoming a demon is the path of perfection. Gains some minor spellcasting. No caster levels required.

Wyrd: HoHF: Half Orcs
-a barbarian/sorcerer hybrid. Gains spellcaster advancement every other level. Can enhance spells by gaining 'charges' from rages. Can take a feat that allows them to cast while raging (concentration check needed), tends to explode if overcharged.

Hoodoo: HoHF: Half Orcs
-a barbarian/wizard hybrid, gains spellcasting every other level, gains divination spells as spell-like abilities, can sac spells per day for summoning raging creatures, with the right feats they can summon their own raging mount, can take the same rage casting feat as the Wyrd.

Layrunner: HoHF: Elves
-a barbarian/wizard hybrid, gians spellcasting every other level, can convert rage into celerity (str and con bonuses become speed and dex bonuses)

There is also a HoHF Elf fighter wizard, paladin wizard, and ranger wizard prc, though I'm not sure each of them get wizard casting.

HoHF Dwarves has a fighter wizard and fighter sorcerer prc as well. Each HoHF prc is 10 levels.

Quintessential Wizard has a 5 level prestige class that gives 1/1 BAB and full spellcasting. I think it is d6 HD and gives a few insiginificant benefits as well. I forget its title.

 

[Voadam]

Nobody has mentioned the dragon disciple for the warrior mage concept either.

It only gets a few bonus sorcerer spells, but really nice physical boosts. Great for epic level when higher casting level does not give more spells.

 

[Pazu]

Whoa! Outstanding catch! You have made my day, sir.

I may very well have to revise my assessment...almost certainly, in fact.

Glad to be of service.

 

[StGabe]

...

Unfortunately I've reached a threshold on the number of things I can constructively respond to. I'll just say that I greatly disagree with most of your statements and I'm not sure that you are giving what I am writing a fair read. For example, you are conflating the concept of character overlap and character power. They are two seperate and concerning problems. I.e. the fighter/mage you guys seem to be going for both overlaps the wizard's abilities (which does definitely muddy and undermine his group role, you can have two wizard's in a group but there's a reason why people tend to not do that) AND doing so with a set of abilities that is otherwise significantly better than any other abilities the wizard has.

I also think that your comments about clerics and druids are completely irrelevant. There are some issues with these classes (albeit manageable ones) and I'd love to talk about them -- in another thread. The existence of balance issues in other areas of the game doesn't mean that I will give up on balance altogether. In campaigns that I run, I have very specific ways that I deal with clerics and druids but really, that's a thread for House Rules and not here.

But my answer would be, "So?" If you actually play with the class, does that deviation from the "clear design goal" actually translate into a dramatic difference in the game? I would say, "No." And you'd reply, "So? It's poorly designed!" And around and around we go because we're starting from fundamentally different positions.

As for "results", I'm absolutely concerned with results. In my experience, campaigns that try to stick to the original design concept of 3e, modularized, balanced class levels end up being a lot more fun. Ultimately balance is there not to make rules designers happy but because it makes multiiplayer games more fun. You want your characters to spend time playing fun characters and overcoming challenges together, not worrying about whether they have powergamed enough to keep up with the other players. In my experience the core 3.0 system, more or less, allows for lots of freedom to express a lot of fun characters and is reasonably well balanced (with some known exceptions). Prestige classes are a great addition to this system but need to basically have just as much playtesting and thought put into them as any of the core classes. Mostly, the published PrC's don't have this. In this case, in my experience of "results", Wizard's are very powerful and, while not optimal or completely synergistic, just taking a mix of fighter and wizard (or sorceror) classes can be quite effective and there isn't a need to go any further by allowing a vastly improved Wizard subclass that gets levels with +1hp and the best BAB essentially "for free". Nor does a fighter/mage combo need 9th (or even 7th or 8th) level spells to be competitive and "viable" and can be fine with even less as well.

...

From such experiences playing the game I believe that you'll end up with a far better balanced, and fun system, if you say that no class should get a full BAB on levels unless they are getting, at most, 1/2 of a spellcasting level (i.e. a spellcasting level every other level) and any prestige classes that break this just shouldn't be allowed in the game. Going further you can realize that any substantial level benefits need to come at the expense of something else, that you can't front-load the class with its best abilities at level 1, etc. I.e. common sense design stuff.

 

[I'm Cleo]

StGabe,

Again, I think we're just arguing from two different points. I have played in groups with some big min/maxers and some not, and it's been fine. We play together and have fun together because we're friends and we have fun together. I don't seem to have experienced players "worrying about powergaming enough" like you have (and I don't mean to doubt that you have -- I'm just trying to explain why we're not seeing eye to eye).

there isn't a need to go any further by allowing a vastly improved Wizard subclass that gets levels with +1hp and the best BAB essentially "for free". Nor does a fighter/mage combo need 9th (or even 7th or 8th) level spells to be competitive and "viable" and can be fine with even less as well.

I guess, also, that I approach that question differently. Sure, I suppose there's no need to allow people to play Eldritch Knights, but I'd ask, "Is there a need to prohibit Eldritch Knights?" And my conclusion is, "No." I choose not to look to the "original design concept" of 3e to determine whether to allow a Prestige Class, I look to see if the Prestige Class overshadows all the other pieces on the table -- and I've come to the conclusion that the Eldritch Knight doesn't. But again, different strokes for different folks.

I'm Cleo!

 

[charlesatan]

Unfortunately I've reached a threshold on the number of things I can constructively respond to. I'll just say that I greatly disagree with most of your statements and I'm not sure that you are giving what I am writing a fair read. For example, you are conflating the concept of character overlap and character power. They are two seperate and concerning problems. I.e. the fighter/mage you guys seem to be going for both overlaps the wizard's abilities (which does definitely muddy and undermine his group role, you can have two wizard's in a group but there's a reason why people tend to not do that) AND doing so with a set of abilities that is otherwise significantly better than any other abilities the wizard has.

I agree that our discussion has slightly gone beyond the topic. I just have 3 points however:

1) Dracomeander said it best: "It is not the classes as presented that are broken. It is the intentions of the players that break the classes."

2) The classes are meant to operate as a group and not as an individual (I've said it a million times before, it's not PVP) in the same way that monsters's CRs are determined when encountering a party rather than an individual. A lot of the classes already show existing "imbalance" using your perspective (which is why I brought the other classes up which you think is "irrelevant" to the discussion).

3) In the end, it's about more freedom to shape your character concept. I'm Cleo phrased it well: 'Sure, I suppose there's no need to allow people to play Eldritch Knights, but I'd ask, "Is there a need to prohibit Eldritch Knights?" And my conclusion is, "No."'

As for "results", I'm absolutely concerned with results. In my experience, campaigns that try to stick to the original design concept of 3e, modularized, balanced class levels end up being a lot more fun. Ultimately balance is there not to make rules designers happy but because it makes multiiplayer games more fun. You want your characters to spend time playing fun characters and overcoming challenges together, not worrying about whether they have powergamed enough to keep up with the other players. In my experience the core 3.0 system, more or less, allows for lots of freedom to express a lot of fun characters and is reasonably well balanced (with some known exceptions). Prestige classes are a great addition to this system but need to basically have just as much playtesting and thought put into them as any of the core classes. Mostly, the published PrC's don't have this. In this case, in my experience of "results", Wizard's are very powerful and, while not optimal or completely synergistic, just taking a mix of fighter and wizard (or sorceror) classes can be quite effective and there isn't a need to go any further by allowing a vastly improved Wizard subclass that gets levels with +1hp and the best BAB essentially "for free". Nor does a fighter/mage combo need 9th (or even 7th or 8th) level spells to be competitive and "viable" and can be fine with even less as well.

...

From such experiences playing the game I believe that you'll end up with a far better balanced, and fun system, if you say that no class should get a full BAB on levels unless they are getting, at most, 1/2 of a spellcasting level (i.e. a spellcasting level every other level) and any prestige classes that break this just shouldn't be allowed in the game. Going further you can realize that any substantial level benefits need to come at the expense of something else, that you can't front-load the class with its best abilities at level 1, etc. I.e. common sense design stuff.

I think the key here is in your words "in my experience". We're not saying it's wrong. But me and Cleo have had experiences where we did the opposite and it's still a fun, non-broken game. That's the thing about D&D -- people have various experiences with it. If your current gaming group is content with your rule changes then you don't need to heed our advice: at the end of the day it's about you and your gaming group. But what if someone in the group asks you permission to play an Eldritch Knight or simply discontent with your existing rulings? Even if that doesn't happen, what happens when you get a new gaming group (either acquiring a new player or GMing and entirely different group).

As for warrior-mage prestige classes in general, I'd like to point out that they are prestige classes and in theory should be more powerful than the base class (due to meeting prerequisites, etc.) or rather be more focused at something.

The EK isn't frontloaded -- that's why you don't get +1 caster level at 1st-level. And the EK gave up hit points and caster level at the very least, which is something you seem to be ignoring compared to your gestalt assessment.

 

[charlesatan]

Nobody has mentioned the dragon disciple for the warrior mage concept either.

It only gets a few bonus sorcerer spells, but really nice physical boosts. Great for epic level when higher casting level does not give more spells.

My take on the Dragon Disciple is that it's more of a warrior class than dabbled in magic or a magic class that dabbles in fighting (at least at epic levels).

I mean at epic levels, I could be Sorcerer 20/Dragon Disciple 10 and still have access to the same level of spells albeit a bit tougher for it (in addition to the fact that I have more spell slots).

At pre-epic levels, this is more of a warrior class however and you don't want to take more than a few levels of classes that don't give you Ftr BAB because you lose out on your 4th attack. An example build is Sorcerer 2/Barbarian 4/Abjurant Champion 4/Dragon Disciple 10. I have +16/+11/+6/+1 BAB and access to 3rd-level spells (and lots of 3rd-level spell slots).

It works quite well though with gish base classes such as Hexblade and Duskblade. They could use the stat boosts and they'll still do fine in the BAB arena.

Another variant I've seen is apply the bonus spells to a non-arcane class. For example, a Sorcerer 1/Paladin 9/Dragon Disciple build and apply the bonus spells to the Paladin spells per day (since the bonus spells in the Dragon Disciple doesn't mention by RAW that it needs to go to the arcane spellcasting class).

Design-wise, Dragon Disciple is an interesting concept because unlike most prestige classes, it follows a delayed gratification principle. The later you take it, the better you are. For example, a Warmage 2/Barbarian 4 could qualify for Dragon Disciple but he'd get more bang for his buck if he took it at 10th-level, where I presume he'll be taking more Warmage levels by then thus giving him access to higher spell slots. (Of course this model only works if you're interested in actually using our spellcasting levels -- a Sorcerer 1/Barbarian 5 is just as eager to get it as a Sorcerer 1/Barbarian 9.)

 

[wildstarsreach]

Duskblade is an awesome class and only has access to 5th level spells. There are two spell anomolies but for the most part they don't need having higher spells.

A good EK build will have either have 8th or 9th level spells by 20th. Adding in other prestige classes like abjurant champion just add to the gravy of the of the fighter mage EK build.

A FM build will do well with 5th to 9th levels spells having varying BA of +16 to +19. The choice of feats and spells also make for how effective these characters are. Style and concept make for the differences and fun. I had real fun playing a sub-optimal fighter who unexpectedly died at 3rd level.

That being said, there is more effective PrC's and less effective ones. The goal is to find the area of fun that doesn't stomp on the other players in your group. There is a nich that a fighter mage fills. It is usually after you get the basics filled.

Have fun.

 

[Felon]

So if he goes Ninja 2/Fighter 1/Wizard 6/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 6 or Ninja 3/Fighter 2/Wizard 5/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 5 he won't have to worry about XP penalties at all, right? (Assuming he's a male drow with favored class wizard.)

Looks legit, though now you have six levels of crummy ol' wizard (hehehe).

 

[Storyteller01]

There is also a HoHF Elf fighter wizard, paladin wizard, and ranger wizard prc, though I'm not sure each of them get wizard casting.

HoHF Dwarves has a fighter wizard and fighter sorcerer prc as well. Each HoHF prc is 10 levels.

Quintessential Wizard has a 5 level prestige class that gives 1/1 BAB and full spellcasting. I think it is d6 HD and gives a few insiginificant benefits as well. I forget its title.

Malhavoc Press has fighter feats that allow said fighter to use maigc effects without actually taking caster levels. Some are very video-gamey, but their still damned effective.