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<blockquote data-quote="jgsugden" data-source="post: 6827635" data-attributes="member: 2629">This is all really simple.&nbsp; We're complicating it with assumptions and partial facts. The core advice that should be given: While a character can be tricked by an NPC, a player should never feel tricked by the DM.&nbsp; How can a character be tricked without the player being tricked?&nbsp; You give the player the opportunity to avoid the trickery that the character might suffer.&nbsp; This can be done with die rolls, with clues, or other techniques... the key is that when the 'trick' is revealed, the player must feel like the character had the opportunity to succeed and that it just didn't work out for them.&nbsp; Secondary advice:A DM should never punish characters for player behavior.Nothing you do in game as a DM should be punishment for the actions of a player.&nbsp; The character issues and the player issues are two separate things and need to be treated as such (to the extent possible).&nbsp; If a player ticks you off by not paying attention, by talking on the phone during the game, by disrupting the game, etc...: Deal with the player.&nbsp; Ask the player to stop these things or leave the group.&nbsp; Don't punish the PC.&nbsp; If the player misses key facts that the character should know because the player wasn't paying attention: The character *should know*.&nbsp; Tell the player again if they try to do something they obviously would not do if they remembered the key fact.&nbsp; If the character is low on intelligence, make them roll to remember - perhaps - but the actions and knowledge of the player and the character should be treated separately.Obviously, if you kick a player out of a group and nobody wants to take over the PC, there will be in game consequences for out of game actions.&nbsp; However, minimize this where possible to maintain the story you're weaving with your players.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="jgsugden, post: 6827635, member: 2629"] This is all really simple. We're complicating it with assumptions and partial facts. The core advice that should be given: [B]While a character can be tricked by an NPC, a player should never feel tricked by the DM. [/B] How can a character be tricked without the player being tricked? You give the player the opportunity to avoid the trickery that the character might suffer. This can be done with die rolls, with clues, or other techniques... the key is that when the 'trick' is revealed, the player must feel like the character had the opportunity to succeed and that it just didn't work out for them. Secondary advice: [B]A DM should never punish characters for player behavior.[/B] Nothing you do in game as a DM should be punishment for the actions of a player. The character issues and the player issues are two separate things and need to be treated as such (to the extent possible). If a player ticks you off by not paying attention, by talking on the phone during the game, by disrupting the game, etc...: Deal with the player. Ask the player to stop these things or leave the group. Don't punish the PC. If the player misses key facts that the character should know because the player wasn't paying attention: The character *should know*. Tell the player again if they try to do something they obviously would not do if they remembered the key fact. If the character is low on intelligence, make them roll to remember - perhaps - but the actions and knowledge of the player and the character should be treated separately. Obviously, if you kick a player out of a group and nobody wants to take over the PC, there will be in game consequences for out of game actions. However, minimize this where possible to maintain the story you're weaving with your players. [/QUOTE]

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