D&D 5E [+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap

[James Gasik]

(I know this is a bit off-topic but I think ties squarely into the 'we can't use real life comparisons' topic going on because...)

For a giant to function they would need some new form of matter completely unknown to science. No metals we know of would allow a human-sized mecha to exist alone, yet alone a biological material. The bipedal body plan humans use is bad at big sizes. Really bad. The largest things on Earth are either in the water (which handles the weight issue) or had all four limbs for support, with a pretty regular feature among the largest groups all around being at least large, column-like legs.

Except Spinosaurus, but we don't talk about Spino.

But basically the human bodyplan isn't the 'everyman' that RPGs try to present it as, its a very specialised body plan that's good at endurance. We're long distant pursuit predators when it comes to hunting because bipedality lessens the energy requirements for walking and running, letting us do it longer and just wearing prey down. Human stat bonuses should always be +Con if we're venturing anywhere near realism

.... Basically the realism stuff is never going to end well per the earlier stuff.

I read an article once upon a time talking about Kaiju and other giant monsters, where it was stated these creatures would need skeletons as tough as diamond to exist. If magic isn't involved, you'd think people would be killing giant monsters to use their bones as building materials more often!

 

[Aldarc]

I suppose, in the context of the thread,

[+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap​

"realism"/verisimilitude/immersion assertions usually serve only to shoot down possible solutions?

Which should not be the case, surely we can nerf casters with realism?

"I cast fireball"
"nothing happens!"
"Wha- why not?"
"REALISM!"

“I wanna do magic. What does this magician class do?”

“Mostly perform vaguely amusing slight of hand parlor tricks with cards and other oddities at children’s birthday parties.”

“That doesn’t seem balanced… Kinda underpowered compared to the fighter.”

“Well that’s realistic! Also, stop complaining. Balance doesn’t matter. It is a cooperative game after all, and you can use your two skills from your background to contribute.”

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I read an article once upon a time talking about Kaiju and other giant monsters, where it was stated these creatures would need skeletons as tough as diamond to exist. If magic isn't involved, you'd think people would be killing giant monsters to use their bones as building materials more often!

Well, giant's are not kaiju sized and bipeds of their size really existed, so I really feel that in their case the impossibility is exaggerated. But hunting massive monsters to build stuff out of their bones certainly is excellent world building material!

 

[TwoSix]

I feel the other way. Verisimilitude should be prioritized unless doing so severely compromises gameplay.

The only problem I have is that verisimilitude is about making sure the fiction stays within the assumptions of the greater setting. No gnomes in Dark Sun, no Jedi in Faerun, etc.

That D&D humans have the exact same limitations as Earth humans isn’t a stated assumption (or even a tacit assumption) of the game rules.

It’s simply a preference some people have that, that’s trying to be cloaked into the game under the title of “verisimilitude”.

 

[billd91]

That D&D humans have the exact same limitations as Earth humans isn’t a stated assumption (or even a tacit assumption) of the game rules.

Depends on what you consider a limitation. I'd say that it is a tacit assumption that, barring rule-based exceptions/abstractions and genre conventions (like the potential to learn to cast magic), game humans are pretty much Earth humans - just somewhat gamified. If there wasn't that assumption - it would be kind of weird to call them humans.

 

[Cadence]

That D&D humans have the exact same limitations as Earth humans isn’t a stated assumption (or even a tacit assumption) of the game rules.

That would explain why most dungeons don't have ways to collect or dispose of human(oid) waste or ventilation - D&D humans don't generate waste and only need to breath air when submerged in water long enough to stimulates the urge.

 

[mamba]

The game becomes all about overcoming those restrictions, because the way to solve every problem is to bring magic to bear, so you do whatever it takes to make sure the casters can do their thing. Meticulously gathering large, quantities of spell components, cache them and duplicate spellbooks in safe locations, human shields to protect the casters, stockpiling scrolls and wands, pre-casting spells to make it safer to cast other spells that make it possible to cast the spell you actually need, etc, etc...
....shouldn't be that unfamiliar, really...

ah, you see it as making it harder to cast the same (current) spells, I see it as nerfing them to reduce their utility

 

[TwoSix]

Depends on what you consider a limitation. I'd say that it is a tacit assumption that, barring rule-based exceptions/abstractions and genre conventions (like the potential to learn to cast magic), game humans are pretty much Earth humans - just somewhat gamified. If there wasn't that assumption - it would be kind of weird to call them humans.

Not being able to shoot fire from my brain seems like a pretty big limitation.

 

[mamba]

I suppose, in the context of the thread,

[+] Ways to fix the caster / non-caster gap​

"realism"/verisimilitude/immersion assertions usually serve only to shoot down possible solutions?

no, they just tend to fix it by nerfing the caster, not by buffing the martials to superhuman levels.

Both are perfectly acceptable solutions for the issue

 

[James Gasik]

The only problem I have is that verisimilitude is about making sure the fiction stays within the assumptions of the greater setting. No gnomes in Dark Sun, no Jedi in Faerun, etc.

That D&D humans have the exact same limitations as Earth humans isn’t a stated assumption (or even a tacit assumption) of the game rules.

It’s simply a preference some people have that, that’s trying to be cloaked into the game under the title of “verisimilitude”.

That brings up an interesting point, are Dark Sun humans, humans? When the setting was created, they each had at least one innate psychic ability and their maximum ability scores in each category were 2 above what they were in the PHB. If WotC actually did make a 5e Dark Sun and were like "yeah, so, roll 4d4+4 for each ability score, and the cap is 22, oh and roll for a psionic wild talent", could we still claim that these are humans bound to normal human limitations?