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We saw a Star War! Last Jedi spoiler thread

Can someone explain the quest for the map/R2 shuts down tie in to this movie. I'm going to assume that Luke leaves shortly after Kylo kills everyone at the academy?

timeline
luke trys to kill Kylo-Kylo feels betrayed but wasn't 100% bad right before that -but then kills everyone at the temple with some other students (the vision we have of the knights is the night of the temple killing?)-Luke decides to leave but creates a cryptic map which both parties have figured out except the last part?-r2 awakens (still not sure why R2 shuts down?)-Mazz has his old lightsaber (did Luke know where it was).

Based on above feels to me like there are 2 scripts for this overall story and parts of awakens have been rewritten to fit Johnsons vision. Now if Abrams goes back and writes back in Mazz, Snoke , knights of Ren etc will the defenders of 2 be upset? I personally don't believe there was an rough drafts/outline of the trilogy other than we have to move on from older actors (it was very clear that Ford only wanted to be in 1 movie so he had to die) and start with a new vision.

I think the force is becoming something that is just known and no longer needs to be taught or refined (the boy in the stable) and star wars becomes the next divergent where young teens battle each other
 

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hopeless

Adventurer
As it stands Rey needs a living tutor to be taught properly, a Force Ghost will not cut it!
Sadly it's clear they will make whatever they want especially messing up the script for reasons that I seriously don't understand and if I could it doesn't feel like something worth watching!
What is going on?
Even Star Wars Rebels respected canon, this... well it would be nice to understand their thinking!
 

Mallus

Legend
As it stands Rey needs a living tutor to be taught properly, a Force Ghost will not cut it!
Does she?

Luke teaches Rey the true nature of the Force, watches her impulsively jump into the Dark Side Hole, then wisely, reject its lure and climb back out, and then zoom off to save her friends and save Kylo's soul. I'd say she's good to go. She's as ready as Luke was in Empire. More so, even.

What a Jedi needs is an understanding of the Force and to decide their relationship to it. Everything else is dogma & baggage. Recall that the whole prequel trilogy raised the question of the value late Republic Jedi teachings.

... well it would be nice to understand their thinking!
I think I can explain it.

Rian Johnson took Star Wars seriously. He thought a lot about it. Then he made The Last Jedi. To immense credit, he even put some jokes in, despite thinking seriously a lot about Star Wars :).

(obviously this wasn't going to work for for some people)
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
As it stands Rey needs a living tutor to be taught properly, a Force Ghost will not cut it!

Do we know this for a fact? Living tutors didn't seem to stop the Jedi Order from becoming sclerotic and producing the weapon that would ultimately bring them down. A living tutor didn't prevent Ben Solo from being corrupted by a Dark Force outsider. Maybe it's time for a completely different approach.


Sadly it's clear they will make whatever they want especially messing up the script for reasons that I seriously don't understand and if I could it doesn't feel like something worth watching!
What is going on?
Even Star Wars Rebels respected canon, this... well it would be nice to understand their thinking!

Of course they'll make whatever they want. They're the ones who own and control the material. And since the box office is pretty decent and fan reactions as surveyed coming out of the theaters is high, it seems more people are onboard with their direction than are not.

If you want to understand their thinking, you might find it easier if you approach the subject with fewer preconceived assumptions and expectations. The internet peanut gallery makes it pretty clear that many people can't get over their attachment to their own preconceptions.
 

Mallus

Legend
I don't mean to nitpick your fixes, you you did get a few things wrong about TLJ...

Reveal Rey's link to the force and to Luke's lightsaber.
They did. Rey's link is she's a Force-sensitive with enormous latent abilities (from a family of no-good junk dealers).

Have a point to her entering the dark hole, leading to either a wise lesson about the Force, or some dark revelation about herself.
Rey absolutely learned a valuable lesson in the Dark Side Hole. She learned the Dark Side has nothing to offer her. So she rejects it and climbs back out.

We also get a lovely visualization of how the Dark Side works; it's selfishness rather than connection. Note how the film ends with Kylo surrounded by people who fear and despise him, effectively alone, while Rey's flying away surrounded by adoptive family.

I have no issue with her using her Force powers to float to safety. But with the recent death of Carrie Fisher, they had an easy out here. Why didn't they take it?
Probably to avoid the appearance they were exploiting the death of a beloved actress. Instead of mirroring Fisher's death in Leia's arc, they gave us an image of her character at her most powerful, most magnificent. Reminding the audience Leia isn't just competent leader, she's a space-magical princess capable of rescuing herself even after being blasted into the vacuum of space.

The First Order however has a heavy presence on the Casino planet, thus adding extra tension to Finn's adventures on the planet. Throw in a battle with some AT ST walkers while you're at it, and you have everything for an exciting finale.
The point of Canto Bight is to give the audience a glimpse of the wider Star Wars universe where the First Order isn't the only evil.

Because why have these awesome looking AT-AT's in your movie if you're not going to use them?
Point of order: that awesome-looking line of AT-ATs were used. To fire an even-awesomer barrage into the lone man with a laser sword who walked out of the (not-so hinden) fortress to challenge them, i.e. legendary Jedi Master Luke Skywalker.

Who legendarily walked out of said barrage unscathed. Tell me that wasn't epic. If even the truth of it was Jedi Mind-tricky.

Neither Finn or Rose take part in the battle on Crait, and Rose does not crash her ship into that of Finn. That was dumb.
Fighting to save the people you love by crashing a speeder into them while in close proximity to a beam super-weapon might be a little dumb, but it's totally Star Wars.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I've seen the movie twice now and, what can I say: I felt the need to post about it on the Internet because [-]I have learned nothing since the Usenet days[/-] I am sure you will all find my unique perspective enlightening and life changing.

And that? That snarky sentence I just wrote up there? That's everything wrong with The Last Jedi: too much Internet style snark. Coupled with some unbelievably bad writing which is honestly shocking for a major studio production.

Consider the ending of The Force Awakens. Rey spends about half an hour climbing a mountain and then the camera swirls around her and Luke for another ten minutes while she holds out the lightsaber. OK, it's only a few minutes, but still: precious MINUTES of running time. You don't squander that on a nothing scene, right?

We get a compressed version of that scene in TLJ to remind us where we left off, Luke takes the saber, and... tosses it over his shoulder?

NO! No, no, no. This is HORRIBLE. This is like someone being a deliberate dick during an improv routine and deliberately nullifying something that a previous performer established. You wouldn't do this in Second City, you wouldn't do it in in a role-playing game, and you sure as hell shouldn't do it in a major motion picture.

Do you want Luke to refuse to teach Rey (at first) for reasons? Sure, that's fine. He can refuse the lightsaber, with words, or by reluctantly taking it and then giving it back, or something. Anything other than the petulant Internet snark.gif style way of throwing it over his shoulder like it doesn't matter. Remember, this was the saber that Mazz had in a mysterious box in the previous film, the saber that Kylo Ren demanded from Finn, the saber that Rey used to defeat Kylo after Finn failed to do so. THIS IS AN IMPORTANT SABER.

It's not a joke prop that Luke can just toss over his shoulder. (The only thing missing from this scene to make it a perfect 4chan meme is the 'whoops' sound effect from a Benny Hill skit.)
In less than a second, it establishes that Luke wants nothing to do with the lightsaber, nothing to do with Rey, and that something is deeply and badly wrong with him. That scene wasn't bad writing, it was the opposite. It was a shocking distillation of what would take a few minutes of dialog to establish, and not as strongly.

Yes, it would be a dick move in improv, because the rules of improv are to not invalidate what someone else has introduced, but this isn't improv, and instead of invalidating (the lightsaber is still an important character after all), it uses a shock move to introduce an entire theme without taking lots of time to explain it. It was instantly understandable and sets the stage nicely for the antagonistic behavior of Luke in the following scenes.

But let's back up to the actual first scene of the movie, the incredibly gripping... two unnamed Rebel flunkies discussing munitions during the evacuation. Are you FREAKING kidding me? You could have opened with anything you wanted to, and you chose THIS? My goodness. Please find a better opening scene than this first draft nonsense.

Also, in your next draft, please cut this entire terrible waste of a casino planet section. It's a fractal of bad writing. You waste a scene with Mazz telling you only one hacker can do the job, you waste a scene with that hacker at a craps table, and then another hacker who can also do the job just happens to be in the next cell? Oh, and he also kept his hacking gear when he escaped? I mean, what the HELL? This is awful, introducing extraneous new characters for no reason, on an extraneous side-quest that accomplishes nothing other than to pad the already bloated running time.
The Canto Bight scenes are critical for Finn's character arc -- they're where he learns a number of important lessons: winging it doesn't work and there's more out there to fight for. It also introduces the very interesting plot twist about war racketeers being behind everything for profit, which I hope they pay off in IX.

I agree it's the weakest part of the movie, but it's still important and totally not a waste of time. It pays off at the end of the movie. And the 'pick up the guy you just found' puts paid to a decided trope when that goes about as horribly wrong as it can.

You seem to confuse the deliberate trope flipping as bad writing because it doesn't adhere to the tropes.

Others have already picked on the bad jokey lines like 'holding for Hux' or 'page turners'. I'll pile on -- that scene with Poe and Hux is going to age terribly. Again, this isn't an Internet skit about bad cell phone reception, this is STAR WARS! Poe could've found any way to stall Hux. He could've used a Star Wars-y insult like 'nerf herder', he could have pretended to negotiate surrender, he could have given a rousing Rebel speech. Instead we get conference call jokes and at the end, a 'yo momma' joke. Really? REALLY?! Who wrote this, a 16-year-old?
Valid. They didn't bother me, but I can see how others might not like the style.

Allow me to offer up another line that, to me, proves we're looking at a first draft.

Snoke welcomes Kylo Ren and Rey to the throne room.

Snoke: "My faith in you in restored, my good and faithful apprentice."

See those bolded words? (faith / faithful) Repeating the same word in different forms is a common 'rough draft' thing that you fix when editing. You don't leave those words repeated like that; it weakens the setence. (OK, yes, in rare cases you can repeat words for poetic effect but this random Snoke line is not at that level.)
Psychological reinforcement. This is moments before Ren betrays Snoke, so the hamfisted double reinforcement is there for a reason -- not because it's a 1st draft. They're selling the point that Snoke now has faith in his apprentice. It could have been less in your face, sure, but that's a stylistic quibble, not a failure of writing. Audiences today seem to need to be punched in the face to get the point.

Although, it's interesting that your complaints are about the punches to the face to reinforce a point because they were punches lacking artistry, but you still seem to have missed the point.
How about this one when Rose meets Finn.

Rose: "I'm doing talking to a Rebellion hero! Ugh, 'doing talking', what am I saying?" (paraphrased)

This is another classic sign of 'rough draft' writing: when a character calls out the bad writing directly! This is the writer's unconscious telling him, 'Hey, this sentence sucks. Please fix it so you don't sound stupid.' But he LEFT IT IN! This is terrible. This line wouldn't have made it out of the slush pile at Isaac Asimov's Science Fiction Magazine and it should NEVER have made it into the production script of a movie.

I'm going to stop here because this is making me depressed. I wanted to like this movie, and I did like parts of it, but geez. Please hire a good writer. Please.
Or, it's how real people really speak when suddenly confronted with their heroes after a tragedy. Good grief, do you really want the character crying over her recently dead sister, being chased by the Order, and who just meets unexpectedly one of her heroes to have perfect diction? That was an awesome humanizing point for Rose.

You seem to be heavily hung up on the basic style of writing, like someone that's taken some courses and been taught the "right" way to do a thing that you can't see that real writers pay lip service to those things but do their best work when they change it up, like writing characters with understandably bad diction or upending expected tropes to set scenes. The things you're complaining about are like the Pirate Code -- more like guidelines than rules.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Rey absolutely learned a valuable lesson in the Dark Side Hole. She learned the Dark Side has nothing to offer her. So she rejects it and climbs back out.

We also get a lovely visualization of how the Dark Side works; it's selfishness rather than connection. Note how the film ends with Kylo surrounded by people who fear and despise him, effectively alone, while Rey's flying away surrounded by adoptive family.

This. This, this, this. So much this.
 

tomBitonti

Adventurer
Can someone explain the quest for the map/R2 shuts down tie in to this movie. I'm going to assume that Luke leaves shortly after Kylo kills everyone at the academy?

I don’t have an answer. But, your question brings up a point? What’s up with droids in the movie? BB8 does some repairs, but then gives away the intrusion on the star destroyer. And, Luke dying at the end leaves behind the connection to R2, who is absent the scene.

Thx!
TomB
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Can someone explain the quest for the map/R2 shuts down tie in to this movie. I'm going to assume that Luke leaves shortly after Kylo kills everyone at the academy?

timeline
luke trys to kill Kylo-Kylo feels betrayed but wasn't 100% bad right before that -but then kills everyone at the temple with some other students (the vision we have of the knights is the night of the temple killing?)-Luke decides to leave but creates a cryptic map which both parties have figured out except the last part?-r2 awakens (still not sure why R2 shuts down?)-Mazz has his old lightsaber (did Luke know where it was).

Based on above feels to me like there are 2 scripts for this overall story and parts of awakens have been rewritten to fit Johnsons vision. Now if Abrams goes back and writes back in Mazz, Snoke , knights of Ren etc will the defenders of 2 be upset? I personally don't believe there was an rough drafts/outline of the trilogy other than we have to move on from older actors (it was very clear that Ford only wanted to be in 1 movie so he had to die) and start with a new vision.

I think the force is becoming something that is just known and no longer needs to be taught or refined (the boy in the stable) and star wars becomes the next divergent where young teens battle each other

Again, astrogation in Star Wars is as much about the path as the destination. That a Jedi Temple planet exists, everyone knows. What they don't know is how to get there. The route is something that would take decades of dedicated work to find again. But there was a partial map recovered from Imperial records. Then there was an additional map that covered the gaps in those records, and showed the full route to the Jedi Temple planet (I forget it's name).

Luke didn't know where the old lightsaber was -- he dropped it over Bespin and never recovered it. How Maz has it is a mystery.

R2 shut down because he's a fickle old bot and without his friend (Luke) he figured it was a better was to wait.

I agree that the arc of this trilogy was roughed out at best with lots and lots of room for each movie team (director/writers) to work.

As for the force, okay, I disagree.
 


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