Weakening Spells for Metamagic

[Rechan]

Okay, this is an odd idea I had, and I'm not sure how to do it.

Currently, if you want to cast a spell with metamagic applied, you cast the spell normally PLUS metamagic, for a total higher level spell.

But what if you wanted to cast a weaker version of the spell, in exchange for being able to apply metamagic to it "for free"? The spell would remain at the same level, with the metamagic feat applied, but it would be weaker. This way you could get more utility from your Widen/Enlarge/Extend/Still/Silence feats without wasting higher level slots, but your spells are less potent against stronger enemies.

Let's say I'm a 7th wizard. I want to cast a Widened fireball. But I can't, because I can't cast 6th level spells yet.

Instead, I prepare a Widened Fireball as a 3rd level spell But, because Widen would normally take up 3 levels higher, I subtract 3 from my caster level. So I get a 40ft spread that does 4d6 damage. I also subtract 3 from the DC, so it's 10+my int bonus.

The formula is as follows: For every level that a metamagic feat WOULD bump a spell up, you subtract that number from the DC and the Caster Level.

If that's not strong enough, how about subtracting the metamagic level number from every numerical aspect (thus, a Stilled Cause Fear spell would effect a creature of 5HD or less).

 

[WhatGravitas]

Can get... hairy. Take a look at spells without saving throws: Enervation. Being able to cast a twinned Enervation for losing 4 hours of duration? That's pretty good. And you can add empower spell to that?

This means shooting two rays of "suckage" on a target, both doing 1d4 x 1.5 negative levels.

Even if you subtract the penalty from the effect (i.e. negative levels), there are other spells, that are even more problematic:

Casting a regular ray of exhaustion, followed by a quickened wave of fatigue. Since the wave is neither caster level-dependant, nor has a saving throw or numerical effect, this becomes a dangerous combo - potentially dropping one foe (due to exhaustion + fatigue from different sources), and weakening surround foes as well.

And the math doesn't even work out for regular spells at certain levels: Scorching Ray, twinned on caster level 11 (2x 2 rays for 4d6) is still better than a regular scorching ray (3 rays for 4d6). If you consider that this is a 2nd level spell, and you can twin it first, than load it up with 'normal' metamagic, until you get a 6th level spell... well, this is *dangerous*:

Caster level 11, Scorching Ray:
Regular metamagic: Quickened
Weaking metamagic: Twinned
=> 4x 4d6 ~ 56 dmg

followed by another Scorching Ray (not quickened):
Regular metamagic: Empowered
Weaking metamagic: Twinned
=> 3x 4d6 x 1.5 ~ 63 dmg
____________________________
119 damage for a 6th and a 4th level slot, due to this metamagic variants.

Compare to a good 6th level damage dealer: Desintegrate: 22d6 ~ 77 dmg WITH SAVING THROW.

If you think that's okay in your game, feel free to use it, personally, I think it's a bit on the powerful side.

Cheers, LT.

 

[ceratitis]

i agree this varient is too powerful but i like the idea of getting more out of your metamagic feats... what if you limit it to "less" problematic feats and prohibit its use on twin, or empower.
maybe you can only weaken the spell by 1 or 2 levels, maybe the weakening costs you 2 castor levels for each +1 metamagic?

 

[Pyrex]

The problem is that there will always be spells where the 'penalty' has no effect and so the caster gets the metamagic for free. Corner cases on wonky combat spells will ruin your day here...

 

[erf_beto]

I like it, but I think only spells that increase potency at higher caster levels should be allowed, and the penalty should reduce the effective caster level at least by 2 per spell level (since thats the math going around spell and caster levels).
Scorching Ray and fixed damage/effect spells should not be allowed, unless you dont generalize (so sleep can be widened, but affects only 2HD, scorching rays can extend, but damages 2d6 less ).
Maybe you should also ask the player to roll Spellcraft (at least once) to see if he suceeds at tweaking the spell further from the metamagic RAW and judge each case separatly. "So you want to widen a fireball and reduce the damage? Okay, but just this once", "What? Charm Person Heightened to 9th level spell but with reduced duration, for a first level slot? Nah"

 

[Aluvial]

I wouldn't do this, but I would try this.

How about Metamagic feats that allow you to take spells in lower slots, by putting some type of penalty on them.

For instance. A Metamagic penalty to all ranged and melee touch spells. If you take a -5 on the attack roll, you may cast this spell in a slot one lower than normal.

For instance, Ray of Exhaustion (3rd level). If you apply this negative Metamagic feat on the spell, you could cast the spell as a 2nd level spell.

What do you think?

Aluvial