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D&D 3E/3.5 Weapon Size question for 3.5

harikus

First Post
As I understand it, a medium sized character gains penalties when wielding a large sized weapon. But this is where I get confused after reading about half giant as a playable race and magic of incarnum.

A. A half giant upon reaching his 2nd character level gets all the benefits from his race. He ends up gaining +2 str and con and -2 dex, naturally psionic, stomp and powerful build. If I understand correctly, a half giant therefore can equip a large sized weapon but cannot get the reach he would if he were actually large sized (powerful build). If this is true, when wielding say a Long Sword, at level one I could equip a medium sized that does 1d8 19-20 2x, and upon reaching his second character level he could equip a large sized long sword doing 2d6 19-20 x2. Did I read that right? And if so, why wouldn't everyone just pick half giant for a pure melee character?

B. When I cracked open Magic of Incarnum, things got really hairy. A friend of mine heard I was wanting to start a game once a weak and I was open to anything from the WoTC books as long as I had time to read and understand it. He told me an Incarnate half giant can equip a Huge Incarnate weapon with no penalties. His incarnate, as he describes could meld a Lawful Longsword that does something like 3d6 20 x2. When I scoffed in his face over this he showed me this line and It gave me pause. I am not really open to this understanding..maybe allowing him to use a large but a huge???

"Incarnum forms into a one-handed melee weapon that embodies
your alignment. The weapon seems large for your hand, but it is
balanced perfectly for you to wield it
. Clutching it in your hand,
you feel it resonate with your deepest convictions and firmest beliefs,
and it hums with power."

Also in the book he points out that the Cleric with the Incarnum (fifth level spell) domain can use make an Incarnum Weapon that starts out doing 2d6. 20 x2. That the spell assumes a medium sized cleric is creating a weapon that is typically 1d8 as a medium weapon but becomes 2d6 upon becoming a large verision of itself.

My question on B is to the DMs mostly and experienced players, would you consider that insubstantial enough to disregard? The spell reference gives me pause because it doesn't make sense for an incarnate who specializes in Melding (seems also to be the most focused on the art out of the three classes by the way) to be outdone by a cleric who just happens to pick it up as a side thing when forming a weapon made completely from Incarnum. Frankly the book is starting to piss me off but Id hate to cut it out if it brings enjoyment to the players. :rant:
 

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A: First of all, make sure you understand that half-giant is a race and Complete Psionic added racial levels so they could be played from level 1. As to your question about taking the race for a melee character, keep in mind the Level Adjustment is at the cost of a class level typically. Losing out on BAB, saves, hit points, skills, class features, etc is something every player has to weigh when determining what his character will be like. When looking at the numbers weapon size isn't actually much of a factor in damage until you're getting an increase of two dice, such as going from a huge greatsword (4d6) to gargantuan (6d6).

B: Could you please give better references? Specifically page numbers and such so we don't have to go searching for the information to help you out.

A bit of advice though: Don't say you'll okay something once you're read and understood it. That leaves you more open to players trying to get something past that you may not feel would work in your campaign. Instead say that you'll consider it, but you'll disallow something if it proves to not work out. Make sure to be open to discussion just in case the player has some information that you hadn't thought about.
 
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harikus

First Post
Good point, I may run this by the other players also. The part B refers to Magic of Incarnum book. The Incarnate Weapon soulmeld is pg 72 and the Cleric Level 5 spell is pg 102. He figures the cleric spell conjures up a weapon which as medium would be 1d8 but it seems to indicate a 2d6 which would be a its large sized counterpart. It is described as "oversized" in the cleric spell. He noticed also that the incarnate weapon soulmeld implies that the weapon is "large for your hand". He makes the case that since his half giant is capable of using larger weapons and could potentially just craft one to be that way, that he should also be able to soulmeld an incarnate weapon which he thinks is already scaled up on to scale it up again..up to huge. It does not seem to be a major breakage, but I am still somewhat unconvinced the soulmeld could work that way without some additional cost at the very LEAST. :)
 

The spell on page 102 only lists 2d6 as the damage. That is it. Its damage does not change with the character because nothing is mentioned about it changing with the character. Spiritual Weapon doesn't become bigger or smaller with the caster for example, so why should this one? Oddly enough, it's called a "large weapon of incarnum" but the spell actually says it's a small object when talking about its AC.

In short, your player is interpreting the rules wrong. If you're inclined to, let him know that the rules don't not support what he's going on about and neither will you.
 

delericho

Legend
The spell on page 102 only lists 2d6 as the damage. That is it. Its damage does not change with the character because nothing is mentioned about it changing with the character. Spiritual Weapon doesn't become bigger or smaller with the caster for example, so why should this one?

I agree with this (and most of the rest of your post) - unless a spell specifically says it does something, don't generalise from the examples given. 3.5e magic is already extremely powerful; there's no need to make it any more powerful than it already is.

However, note that...

Oddly enough, it's called a "large weapon of incarnum" but the spell actually says it's a small object when talking about its AC.

When 3.5e talks about small, medium and large weapons this refers to the size of the wielder. This is quite distinct from its size as an object. In this particular case, a large weapon is a small object.

(Which I know is confusing - it's not one of the best-designed bits of 3.5e.)
 

Sekhmet

First Post
[MENTION=6703882]harikus[/MENTION]
The flavor text of spells is just that - flavor. The spell conjures a large weapon that you can wield at no penalty, and deals 2d6 damage. That is all.
 

harikus

First Post
Yeah I think this sums up my misgivings in a way better way than I couldve put it. Thanks so much!
We talked and we like the idea of allowing Incarnum to spice up the game, and I really am interested to see a full fledged Incarnate come in, seems rather exciting! But I'll let him know that any character, not just half giant could effectively use the soulmeld, I think he may find Azuran to be a better choice anyway.
 

Ashtagon

Adventurer
When 3.5e talks about small, medium and large weapons this refers to the size of the wielder. This is quite distinct from its size as an object. In this particular case, a large weapon is a small object.

(Which I know is confusing - it's not one of the best-designed bits of 3.5e.)

That was true of 3.0e. 3.5e changed the weapon terminology to light/one-handed/two-handed; 3.5e doesn't officially define weapon size as Small/Medium/Large anywhere. Also, bear in mijnd that text in italics is typically "fluff" text, and should be disregarded in any rules interpretation.
 

delericho

Legend
That was true of 3.0e. 3.5e changed the weapon terminology to light/one-handed/two-handed; 3.5e doesn't officially define weapon size as Small/Medium/Large anywhere.

That's at once correct and incorrect. While 3.5e did introduce the light/one-handed/two-handed terminology, it also makes reference to the weapon's size in relation to the wielder's size - in particular, note the two different damage ratings given for each weapon (one for a small instance of the weapon, and the other for a medium one). Further, the "Rules Compendium" gives the means for translating these to equivalent object sizes. (The Core Rulebooks no doubt include the same text, but I only checked the RC with my previous post.)

As I said, it's a bit of a mess.
 

N'raac

First Post
Although I believe it's an optional rule, 3.5 also allows for use of different-sized weapons, at least those that are similar. A Dagger to a size M creature is a Short Sword to a Size S creature, for example.
 

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