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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Water Bob" data-source="post: 5572470" data-attributes="member: 92305">Light weapons, definitely. In my game (probably in D&D, too), light weapons are the only ones that can be used with a grapple. I like that a dagger now has a "place" among the weapon choices. It can be used in a grapple, and it gets the speed attack bonus. But, one of the reasons I'm hesitating, looking at the rule from different angles, and thinking through alternative approaches, is in respect for the Rule of Unintended Consequences. I want to make sure I don't make a bad rule but not discover its a bad rule until later on when my players are already used to using the Speed Rule. One of the Red Flag areas is that I'm wondering if I'm creating two "Critical Hit" chances with the Speed Attack. For example, on an attack, a dagger has a chance for a Critical Threat, and now we're giving it another boost with the Speed Attack. Does that all boil down to two Critical Hit checks? Maybe. And, if so, that's not a good rule.     James Courage, up thread a bit, mentioned making the Speed Attack along with the Critical Threat. I didn't think so at the time, but now I'm thinking that might not be a bad idea. WEAPON SPEED RULE #5 would go something like this, nodding towards what James said. When a Speed Weapon rolls a Critical Threat, the player has two options. 1: He can move on with the Critical Check per the normal rules. Or, 2: He can give up the Critical Check and use the Speed Rule. In this case, the Speed Rule would be an exploding die based on max damage. Thus, if I were wielding a dagger and I threw a natural 20 on the attack throw, I'd have a choice. I could proceed with the normal Critical Hit check, getting extra damage is I succeed.  Or, I could give up the chance at extra damage for that chance at successive hits by using the Speed Rule.  The Speed Rule could only be used with Speed Weapons (light weapons, and maybe a few exceptions, like the spear or the foil), and if I rolled max damage on a Speed Attack, I could roll another Speed Attack--and keep rolling Speed Attacks as long as I kept rolling a "4" (max damage) on the dagger's d4 damage die.     Another thing to keep in mind is that we could keep a handle on Speed Attacks if we consider the speed attack also as an Attack of Opportunity (that is provoked not by the foe but by the result on the damage die or as a Critical Thread). What we'd have to watch here, though, is Combat Reflexes becoming so powerful that every player feels it's a mandatory feat to get.     EDIT: The original 1E AD&D rule that inspired the Speed Attack didn't make for two criticals with the weapon because in 1E AD&D, there was no "official" critical throw. Many people house-ruled that a natural "20" mean double damage, but this was never an official rule under that edition. There sure weren't any Attacks of Opportunity, either. Thus, giving weapons speed attacks was the only way to get extra attacks above and beyond what a character would normally get. This is one reason why I'm starting to favor the Critical Threat or Speed Attack, but not both, idea of speed attack. If a weapon is just x2 damage on a critical, then there's no reason not to try the speed attack. If a weapon is x3 or more damage on a critical, then there's more to think about. In Conan, just the weapon's damage is multiplied (more dice thrown) and not the STR damage bonus or other damage bonuses. Thus, a dagger rolls a Critical Threat on 19-20 and does 1d4 damage. If the player goes with the Critical Threat, he does his check, and if successful, he rolls damage of 2d4 + damage mods. If the player goes with the Speed Attack, he'll get an automatic second attack, but his modifiers are counted separately for each attack. And, he gets a 25% chance of rolling another attack. So both options are attractive.   2nd EDIT:  I'm thinking that the Speed Attack is possible as a choice only on a natural "20", regardless of what the weapon's Critical Threat range is.  Thus, on a dagger, if a 19 is thrown, it's a Critical Threat.  If a 20 is thrown, the player has a choice of Critical Threat or Speed Attack.</blockquote>

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