Weapon Speed

[Water Bob]

I rarely move my game away from RAW, even though it might seem otherwise due to these types of posts I make. Really, I just like talking about game mechanics and "what-if" situations.

This rule, though, I think I will implement in my game.

Let me tell you how I got here before I explain the rule. 1st edition AD&D nodded its head towards weapon speed. In a melee, both combatants would roll a d6. No modifiers. Whomever won the toss swung first. If the throw resulted in a tie, the character using the lighter, more maneuverable weapon might get extra attacks, depending on the comparison of his weapon and that of his foe.

I've always loved that freakin' rule. Using a dagger against a foe with a longsword presented a scary situation if that tie came up. The dagger wielder might get one or two additonal attacks that round.

This sure made small weapon usage a tad more viable.

Flash forward to 2nd edition AD&D. The weapon's speed factor was used completely differently. It became a modifier to the Initiative throw. That worked on one level, as when in melee, the combatant with the larger, heavier weapon was skewed to go late in the round, allowing the characters with the smaller, faster weapons to attack first (on average--we're talking about dice throws here).

But, that answer to weapon speed did not work if the character, on his initiave, did something else besides attack. What's wielding a longsword got to do with running to close the porticulls?

Flash forward again to 3rd edition D&D. Any reference to weapon speed is completely thrown out. There is no advantage to wielding fast, small weapons. Weapon selection is an exercise in deciding how many hands to use and which available weapon does the most damage.

Then came the d20 CONAN game. Lots of choices presented themselves for weapon selection. A Finesse weapon is needed if a combatant will be a DEX based fighter (rather than a STR based fighter). Weapons have Armor Penetraion values, thus a cultlass does more damage than a war hammer, but the hammer will bang down armor more quickly than with the cutlass. And, there is an optional rule that nods it head at weapon mass, so that a combatant using a dagger is -2 to parry a foe using a two-handed greatsword (and he gets a +2 modifier to parry the dagger).

But still, there is no simple, mechanical way to account for weapon speed.

Until now.





Here's the rule I've created for my own game. Basically, what it does is touch back to that rule from 1st edition AD&D that occasionally gave lighter, quicker weapons an advantage over heavier, bigger weapons.

ELLIGIBLE WEAPONS: All One-Handed Simple and Martial weapons; Two-Handed piercing weapons.

THE RULE: Whenever a successful attack is made, and minimum damage is thrown (a throw of 1 on the d8 for a Hunting Spear, for example), the character wielding the weapon has found an opportunity for a second, quick strike. He is given a free Attack of Opportunity.







Example:
Regin, the Vanir warrior, uses a two-handed Greatsword against Grule, the Pict, who fights with his Hunting Spear.

The Greatsword is not elligible for the Speed Rule.

The Hunting Spear, since it is a two-handed piercing weapon, is elligible for the Speed Rule. Whenever Grule makes a successful hit, then rolls a "1" on the d8 for damage, Grule may take a free attack on Regin. This simulates jabbing the spear, quickly, twice against the enemy.



Another Example:

Cyrus, the Aquilonian, uses an arming sword against Hoedhar, the Cimmerian, who is using a hunting knife.

Whenever Cyrus hits and rolls damage of "1" on the d10 for his arming sword, Cyrus gains another free Attack of Opportunity on Hoedhar.

Whenever Hoedhar hits Cyrus and rolls damage of "1" on the d4 for his dagger, Hoedhar gains a free Attack of Opportunity on Cyrus.



This won't happen often, but it will happen often enough that small, quick, maneuverable weapons will have a little more bite than they used to.

And, you can see that warrior skill plays the biggest part in being successful on the attack. But, if the attack is successful, then the smaller, lighter weapon will get more attacks, in the long run, against foes.

Hoedhar's dagger, above, will score a second attempt at a hit about 25% of the time after the first hit is made. Yet Cyrus will receive the second hit only about 10% of the time.

 

[Water Bob]

COMMON SENSE

Of course, the GM will have to use common sense, like he does with every rule in the game.

A whip is an exotic weapon, but for those who live in a land where the whip is considered a normal martial weapon, the GM will have to step in and rule that the whip cannot be used with the weapon speed rule. The weapon is not designed to deliver two quick, successive attacks, as you can with a dagger or a spear.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Sounds interesting. It would be nice to make a nod to the weapon speeds of yore, and it's something I think about now and then.

Here are a few questions, to make sure I'm understanding correctly (Note, I'm familiar with 3.5e rather than Conan d20, so disreagard whatever questions are not applicable to Conan!):

* Is this an actual "Attack of Opportunity", or simply a free immediate attack? That is, if no opponent ever does anything to provoke an actual AoO from the wielder of the fast weapon, is this free attack is lost?

* If the wielder is fighting with two weapons (and/or his BAB is high enough to support multiple attacks) is an AoO potentially generated with each attack? (Eg, The attacker is TWF with two daggers; if he hits with both, and rolls 1 damage for both, he gets 2 free AoOs?)

* What attack bonus is used for such a free attack?

* Are unarmed strikes eligible? Such free attacks would be very frequent in that case.

* Are there any restrictions on this free attack? For example...
** Must the free attack be made with the same weapon?
** Can the free attack be made during a standard attack, or is it limited to full attack actions?
** Can the free attack be something other than a damaging attack (eg, trip with trip weapon; grapple attempt with unarmed strike; disarm; etc.)? What if this second attack generates yet another attack (eg, trip)?

* Looking over the weapon lists, including all simple one-handers includes heavy warhammers along with ultra light daggers. Why did you choose to include such a broad range of weapons?
** Also why did you choose to exclude the exotic weapons, many of which (at least stereotypically) are known specifically for being fast?

Overall, a neat idea. I look forward to thinking about this, and seeing how you end up fleshing it out.

 

[Water Bob]

* Is this an actual "Attack of Opportunity", or simply a free immediate attack? That is, if no opponent ever does anything to provoke an actual AoO from the wielder of the fast weapon, is this free attack is lost?

I'm not sure I know the difference between a free immediate attack and an AoO. I thought they were the same thing.

There is no "provoking" the attack. It occurs when damage rolled from an elligble weapon is "1".

So, in order to get the extra attack, the attacker has to hit then roll minimum damage. When those circumstances occur (shouldn't be that often), the free attack is unleashed.



Example:

Dod the Elf fighter is using a longsword. Brae the female human ranger is using a dagger.

Under the rules I posted above, both weapons would be elligible for the Speed Attack.

Dod has initiative. He strikes and hits. He rolls d8 for damage getting a "5" plus his other damage bonuses. Brae removes the hit points. No extra attack for Dod.

Brae's turn. She swings with her dagger and hits. She rolls d4 for damage, getting a "1" plus her other damage bonuses. She's now elligble for the extra attack, and she takes it immediately.

* If the wielder is fighting with two weapons (and/or his BAB is high enough to support multiple attacks, if Conan d20 works like that?)

Yes, d20 Conan is a 3.5 clone. Some things are changed, but not that.

...is an AoO potentially generated with each attack? (Eg, The attacker is TWF with two daggers ; if he hits with both, and rolls 1 damage for both, he gets 2 free AoOs?)

That's a good question and an example of the reason I post these things here--to have good minds who know the game look over the rules.

I think this is a matter of taste. If the Speed Attack is a true AoO, then a character can only take advantage of one AoO per round (unless he has Combat Reflexes).

Do we want to limit the Speed Attacks like that?

I don't think so. I think they're already rare enough.

Therefore, the answer to your question above is that the Speed Attack is not a true AoO. It is not provoked. It is triggered by an event on the dice. And, a character can take advantage of more than one Speed Attack in a round.

I think the chance that a character with two weapons will get an extra attack through the Speed Attack rule is very rare, even if a character uses two daggers, one in each hand.



This brings up a possible unintended consquence: If a character does use two daggers, are his extra attacks that he does get make the game unbalanced? Or, is this a "good" thing, makeing fighting with daggers an attractive option?

I tend towards the latter opinion, but game play testing may prove otherwise. If so, then we may want to look at makeing the Speed Attack a true AoO. That will take the power out of using two daggers (if it proves to be unbalancing).

* Are unarmed strikes eligible? Such free attacks would be very frequent in that case.

Why not?

I think they'd be elligible.

But, I think a shield bash would not be elligible as it is hard to quickly hit someone with your shield twice.

The weapon needs to be capable of two quick hits or thrusts.

BTW, I like how this rule makes a spear a tad more useful. In history, so many cultures use the spear, yet in vanilla D&D (as opposed to Conan, where weapon damage on almost all weapons is increased over their D&D counterparts), the spear is rarely a top choice of players.

** Must the free attack be made with the same weapon?

Yes. It is a function of that weapon's ease of use and maneuverability in combat. The weapon on which the "1" damage is thrown is the weapon that must be used for the free Speed Attack.

** Can the free attack be made during a standard attack, or is it limited to full attack actions?

Good question. Let's make the Speed Attack an Immediate Action. Therefore, it's free, doesn't count towards actions, and won't interfere with other Standard or Full Actions.

Can you foresee a problem looking at it like this?

** Can the free attack be something other than a damaging attack (eg, trip with trip weapon; grapple attempt with unarmed strike; disarm; etc.)?

No. It must be the same attack. We're simulating a quick, double-jab. That's why two-handed Martial Weapons are not elligble. They're too big and heavy to wield that way.

What if this second attack generates yet another attack (eg, trip)?

You can keep on rolling Speed Attacks as long as you hit and roll "1" on damage. It will be a rare, rare day where a character gets two Speed Attacks in a row, statistically speaking.

* Looking over the weapon lists, including all simple one-handers includes heavy warhammers along with ultra light daggers. Why did you choose to include such a broad range of weapons?

See my "Common Sense" post. If you don't think a weapon can be used quickly for two quick strikes, then remove it from the elligibility list.

But, also keep in mind that the original "Speed" rule from 1E AD&D made it possible for almost every weapon to get in a second attack, as long as one weapon was significanlty smaller than the other (Speed Factors were compared).

** Also why did you choose to exclude the exotic weapons, many of which (at least stereotypically) are known specifically for being fast?

Because most characters will not be proficient with them, and I think proficiency is a requirement for the Speed Attack.

Again, the Common Sense rule may apply here. If there's an exotic dagger that a character is proficient with, then the DM should rule that its elligble for the Speed Attack.

Remember, the more damage a weapon does, the less likely it will score a Speed Attack. The weapon that does 1d4 damage is twice as likely to score a Speed Attack as the weapon that does 1d8 damage.

Overall, a neat idea. I look forward to thinking about this, and seeing how you end up fleshing it out.

I just thought this up today. If you've got input, ideas, comments, then, please, let's hear them.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

Hey, that's a quick response! A couple quick things, before I turn in tonight:

* On terminology: Classifying such a free attack as an "immediate action" would by definition limit it to one per round, and also preclude other swift actions that round. Similarly with calling it an "attack of opportunity" or "AoO", which, as you already noted, implies it would eat up a normal AoO if taken. So a different wording might be in order-- at least for now, until you've worked out the exact mechanics. Perhaps just describe it as "immediately make another identical attack on that opponent" and call it a "free fast attack" or something, to avoid confusion (at least in my feeble brain).

* On exotic weapons: If you explicitly make proficiency a rquirement, you don't have to rely so much on DM adjudication to include them piecemeal. That is, I'd suggest rewording the eligibility part of the rule as:

ELIGIBLE WEAPONS: All Light and One-Handed weapons, and Two-Handed piercing weapons, with which a character has proficiency.

That way simple/martial/exotic doesn't matter; the rule just automatically applies to any weapon a particular PC is proficient with. Thus, fighters are automatically good enough to take advantage of it most of the time; as are weird cultists from distant lands, as long as they wield their deity's chosen (fast) exoticweapon. And spellcasters still suck at hand-to-hand, regardless, because they have so few proficiencies.

Other thoughts:

* Does the rule apply on a crit?
* Does the rule apply to magic weapons? And if so, how? (This could get really sticky for D&D, but it may not be a real issue with Conan? Feel free to disregard this, if not.)

And... it's sack out time for me now. I'll mull this over a bit more, and pipe in later.

 

[Water Bob]

* On terminology: Classifying such a free attack as an "immediate action" would by definition limit it to one per round, and also preclude other swift actions that round.

Interesting! I just found one of the differences in the Conan RPG and the standard D&D game. I see by the SRD that you are correct. Yet, I read in my Conan RPG (pg. 181 of 2E) that an Immediate Action is a Free Action that can be taken at any time, even during another character's turn.

And, since it's a Free Action, it doesn't count towards the limits you describe above.

That's the definition of Immediate Action I was using. I had no idea it had a different definition in D&D. The Conan RPG doesn't even recognize Swift Actions.

So, by the Conan RPG, "Immediate Action" is the way to go. In D&D terms, there needs to be a different way to express the Speed Action.

* On exotic weapons: If you explicitly make proficiency a rquirement, you don't have to rely so much on DM adjudication to include them piecemeal. That is, I'd suggest rewording the eligibility part of the rule as:
That way simple/martial/exotic doesn't matter; the rule just automatically applies to any weapon a particular PC is proficient with.

Yes, but I don't think slashing and blunt two-handed weapons should be elligible. You could include them, as it will be a very rare occurence when a second attack is achieved, but I think when that does happen, it will be stranged to see the guy with the two-handed war hammer getting two quick attacks against a foe using a dagger.

So, I think we just leave two-handed weapons as non-elligible unless the two-handed weapon is a piercing type.

How about this?

ELLIGIBLE WEAPONS: All one-handed weapons and two-handed pierceing weapons where the character owns proficiency.

And, we still need to throw the Common Sense rule in there because the whip should not be an elligible weapon.

* Does the rule apply on a crit?

Good question. I think this is, again, a taste thing. I say, "why not"?

These second attacks will not happen that often. Might as well let them happen when they're indicated.

* Does the rule apply to magic weapons? And if so, how? (This could get really sticky for D&D, but it may not be a real issue with Conan? Feel free to disregard this, if not.)

Yes, there's no magic weapons in the Conan RPG. But, if I were using this rule in a D&D game, I certainly would use it with magic weapons for a number of reasons.

First, logically, magic weapons are of better quality/better manufacture than standard weapons. Thus it seems correct they they'd benefit from a rule that tries to simulate speed and maneuverability in combat.

Second, in a D&D game, it is not long before every character has at least a +1 weapon. If you don't allow this rule with magic weapons, you might as well not have the rule in the game.




Here's one thing that's bothering me a bit about this rule, though. I'll share it with you.

Will the Flow-of-the-Game be interrupted when a player gets to the damage rolling part of an attack and then sees that he gets another attack?

Does this rule create "Awkward Flow"?

 

[Raven Crowking]

Water Bob,

RCFG already makes use of weapon speeds, but I rather like the elegance of this rule as well. Just note that some weapons are not eligable, and note what they are (whip, etc.). I would also make it clear that the second attack must be against the same opponent.

Finally, with full credit, I would like to include a version of this rule in my ruleset. I know, rules cannot be copyrighted, yadda yadda, but I'd like your permission all the same, esp. as it would become OGC if I did so.


RC

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

Does Conan D20 have rules for Huge-size opponents (e.g., giants) wielding Huge-sized weapons? The SRD would have a 1d8 normal weapon scale up to 2d6 for the Huge-size variant.

You might need to phrase it not as a 1 on the dice, but as minimum dice damage.

[DM Musings] As a DM I might include a fun clause, that this speed rule damage dice were exploding. That is, as long as minimum damage dice was being rolled for the eligible weapon, the player can keep rolling until minimum damage dice are not rolled.

1, 1, 1, 3 (done)

If I were to go with the exploding dice option, I would opt to not include any ability bonus on damage until the final role, but with a spent action point I would grant ability bonus on damage on all speed rolls for that attack swing.

 

[Rhun]

BTW, I like how this rule makes a spear a tad more useful. In history, so many cultures use the spear, yet in vanilla D&D (as opposed to Conan, where weapon damage on almost all weapons is increased over their D&D counterparts), the spear is rarely a top choice of players.

I agree with this. After watching the fight scene between Achilles and Hector in the movie Troy, I've really felt the need to make spears more useful.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ygRholyh5g]YouTube - ‪Troy - Hector vs Achilles Fight Scene - HQ - Widescreen‬‏[/ame]

 

[Water Bob]

RCFG already makes use of weapon speeds, but I rather like the elegance of this rule as well.

How did you employ speeds in RCFG?

I would also make it clear that the second attack must be against the same opponent.

This is true. The Speed Attack is the same attack, against the same opponent, using the same weapon.

If your foe dies because he only had 1 HP left, then you do not get Speed Attack against another foe.

Finally, with full credit, I would like to include a version of this rule in my ruleset. I know, rules cannot be copyrighted, yadda yadda, but I'd like your permission all the same, esp. as it would become OGC if I did so.

Sounds cool to me! With the condition that you'll tell me your alterations...because, heck, I might like any tweak you do better!

Does Conan D20 have rules for Huge-size opponents (e.g., giants) wielding Huge-sized weapons? The SRD would have a 1d8 normal weapon scale up to 2d6 for the Huge-size variant.

Yes, the Conan d20 does have rules for smaller or bigger opponents. We have our pygmies and frost giants to fight.

Also, the Conan d20 game increases most weapon damage across the board, making weapons deadlier than their D&D counterparts. A one-handed battleaxe does 1d10. A hunting spear does 1d8. A war sword (bastard sword) does 1d12. And a two-handed great sword does 2-18 (1d10 + 1d8).

The rule can easily be changed to cite "minimum damage", but note that most of the elligible weapons (in the Conan Game) all do a single die type of damage. I think there are one or two excpetions of the two-handed piercing variety.

A GM could either change the rule to say "minimum damage," or the single damage die could become one of the rule's requirements.

Thus a Hunting Spear (1d8 damage) and a War Spear (1d10 damage) would both be elligible weapons, but the Bill (2d8 damage) would not be elligible.

This would work witht he Conan RPG but be a bit more problematic with standard D&D.

Thanks for bringing it up, though. I think it is a good requirement for the Speed Attack.

[DM Musings] As a DM I might include a fun clause, that this speed rule damage dice were exploding. That is, as long as minimum damage dice was being rolled for the eligible weapon, the player can keep rolling until minimum damage dice are not rolled.

1, 1, 1, 3 (done)

I didn't mention it in the OP, but I did intend the rule to be "exploding". The chance that the explosion happens, though, is very, very slim. It will be a rare day when there are two extra attacks, back-to-back.

Just think--How many times in a row have you rolled a "1" on damage?

Not often, huh?

If I were to go with the exploding dice option, I would opt to not include any ability bonus on damage until the final role, but with a spent action point I would grant ability bonus on damage on all speed rolls for that attack swing.

An exploding attack would be so rare that I don't think its necessary to change anything about damage or the rule to accomdate it. It will be one of those quirks of the battlefield--the oddity that wins or loses the day.