Jimlock
Adventurer
hmmm... that looks good....
Hoever i'd probably remove the light hammer (2lbs), and i would definitely include the light spear (3lbs).
other that those two the 2lbs consensus works fine...
Weapon Speed
- Thread starter Water Bob
- Start date
hmmm... that looks good....
Hoever i'd probably remove the light hammer (2lbs), and i would definitely include the light spear (3lbs).
other that those two the 2lbs consensus works fine...
Raven Crowking
First Post
I would go with thrusting (piercing) and slashing weapons, as it requires more of an arc to effectively use a chopping or bludgeoning weapon.
Jimlock
Adventurer
I assume you mean light "thrusting (piercing) and slashing weapons"... cause longsword and greatswords are slashing weapons as well..
?
Raven Crowking
First Post
Yes, I do. Or, in my system "Weapons at least one size smaller than the weilder", so that a Medium creature cannot so use a medium weapon, and a Small creature cannot so use a Small weapon.
Nor do I feel particularly constrained by how current usage groups weapons (i.e., I would add a chopping damage category for axes and the like).
Light weapons, definitely. In my game (probably in D&D, too), light weapons are the only ones that can be used with a grapple. I like that a dagger now has a "place" among the weapon choices. It can be used in a grapple, and it gets the speed attack bonus.
But, one of the reasons I'm hesitating, looking at the rule from different angles, and thinking through alternative approaches, is in respect for the Rule of Unintended Consequences.
I want to make sure I don't make a bad rule but not discover its a bad rule until later on when my players are already used to using the Speed Rule.
One of the Red Flag areas is that I'm wondering if I'm creating two "Critical Hit" chances with the Speed Attack. For example, on an attack, a dagger has a chance for a Critical Threat, and now we're giving it another boost with the Speed Attack. Does that all boil down to two Critical Hit checks?
Maybe.
And, if so, that's not a good rule.
James Courage, up thread a bit, mentioned making the Speed Attack along with the Critical Threat. I didn't think so at the time, but now I'm thinking that might not be a bad idea.
WEAPON SPEED RULE #5 would go something like this, nodding towards what James said.
When a Speed Weapon rolls a Critical Threat, the player has two options. 1: He can move on with the Critical Check per the normal rules. Or, 2: He can give up the Critical Check and use the Speed Rule.
In this case, the Speed Rule would be an exploding die based on max damage.
Thus, if I were wielding a dagger and I threw a natural 20 on the attack throw, I'd have a choice. I could proceed with the normal Critical Hit check, getting extra damage is I succeed.
Or, I could give up the chance at extra damage for that chance at successive hits by using the Speed Rule.
The Speed Rule could only be used with Speed Weapons (light weapons, and maybe a few exceptions, like the spear or the foil), and if I rolled max damage on a Speed Attack, I could roll another Speed Attack--and keep rolling Speed Attacks as long as I kept rolling a "4" (max damage) on the dagger's d4 damage die.
Another thing to keep in mind is that we could keep a handle on Speed Attacks if we consider the speed attack also as an Attack of Opportunity (that is provoked not by the foe but by the result on the damage die or as a Critical Thread).
What we'd have to watch here, though, is Combat Reflexes becoming so powerful that every player feels it's a mandatory feat to get.
EDIT: The original 1E AD&D rule that inspired the Speed Attack didn't make for two criticals with the weapon because in 1E AD&D, there was no "official" critical throw. Many people house-ruled that a natural "20" mean double damage, but this was never an official rule under that edition.
There sure weren't any Attacks of Opportunity, either. Thus, giving weapons speed attacks was the only way to get extra attacks above and beyond what a character would normally get.
This is one reason why I'm starting to favor the Critical Threat or Speed Attack, but not both, idea of speed attack. If a weapon is just x2 damage on a critical, then there's no reason not to try the speed attack. If a weapon is x3 or more damage on a critical, then there's more to think about.
In Conan, just the weapon's damage is multiplied (more dice thrown) and not the STR damage bonus or other damage bonuses. Thus, a dagger rolls a Critical Threat on 19-20 and does 1d4 damage. If the player goes with the Critical Threat, he does his check, and if successful, he rolls damage of 2d4 + damage mods.
If the player goes with the Speed Attack, he'll get an automatic second attack, but his modifiers are counted separately for each attack. And, he gets a 25% chance of rolling another attack.
So both options are attractive.
2nd EDIT: I'm thinking that the Speed Attack is possible as a choice only on a natural "20", regardless of what the weapon's Critical Threat range is. Thus, on a dagger, if a 19 is thrown, it's a Critical Threat. If a 20 is thrown, the player has a choice of Critical Threat or Speed Attack.
But, one of the reasons I'm hesitating, looking at the rule from different angles, and thinking through alternative approaches, is in respect for the Rule of Unintended Consequences.
I want to make sure I don't make a bad rule but not discover its a bad rule until later on when my players are already used to using the Speed Rule.
One of the Red Flag areas is that I'm wondering if I'm creating two "Critical Hit" chances with the Speed Attack. For example, on an attack, a dagger has a chance for a Critical Threat, and now we're giving it another boost with the Speed Attack. Does that all boil down to two Critical Hit checks?
Maybe.
And, if so, that's not a good rule.
James Courage, up thread a bit, mentioned making the Speed Attack along with the Critical Threat. I didn't think so at the time, but now I'm thinking that might not be a bad idea.
WEAPON SPEED RULE #5 would go something like this, nodding towards what James said.
When a Speed Weapon rolls a Critical Threat, the player has two options. 1: He can move on with the Critical Check per the normal rules. Or, 2: He can give up the Critical Check and use the Speed Rule.
In this case, the Speed Rule would be an exploding die based on max damage.
Thus, if I were wielding a dagger and I threw a natural 20 on the attack throw, I'd have a choice. I could proceed with the normal Critical Hit check, getting extra damage is I succeed.
Or, I could give up the chance at extra damage for that chance at successive hits by using the Speed Rule.
The Speed Rule could only be used with Speed Weapons (light weapons, and maybe a few exceptions, like the spear or the foil), and if I rolled max damage on a Speed Attack, I could roll another Speed Attack--and keep rolling Speed Attacks as long as I kept rolling a "4" (max damage) on the dagger's d4 damage die.
Another thing to keep in mind is that we could keep a handle on Speed Attacks if we consider the speed attack also as an Attack of Opportunity (that is provoked not by the foe but by the result on the damage die or as a Critical Thread).
What we'd have to watch here, though, is Combat Reflexes becoming so powerful that every player feels it's a mandatory feat to get.
EDIT: The original 1E AD&D rule that inspired the Speed Attack didn't make for two criticals with the weapon because in 1E AD&D, there was no "official" critical throw. Many people house-ruled that a natural "20" mean double damage, but this was never an official rule under that edition.
There sure weren't any Attacks of Opportunity, either. Thus, giving weapons speed attacks was the only way to get extra attacks above and beyond what a character would normally get.
This is one reason why I'm starting to favor the Critical Threat or Speed Attack, but not both, idea of speed attack. If a weapon is just x2 damage on a critical, then there's no reason not to try the speed attack. If a weapon is x3 or more damage on a critical, then there's more to think about.
In Conan, just the weapon's damage is multiplied (more dice thrown) and not the STR damage bonus or other damage bonuses. Thus, a dagger rolls a Critical Threat on 19-20 and does 1d4 damage. If the player goes with the Critical Threat, he does his check, and if successful, he rolls damage of 2d4 + damage mods.
If the player goes with the Speed Attack, he'll get an automatic second attack, but his modifiers are counted separately for each attack. And, he gets a 25% chance of rolling another attack.
So both options are attractive.
2nd EDIT: I'm thinking that the Speed Attack is possible as a choice only on a natural "20", regardless of what the weapon's Critical Threat range is. Thus, on a dagger, if a 19 is thrown, it's a Critical Threat. If a 20 is thrown, the player has a choice of Critical Threat or Speed Attack.
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Jimlock
Adventurer
This way a crit and a speed weapon roll are almost exactly the same.
A crit confirmation and a speed weapon attack have both the same attack roll with the same BAB, only difference being that instead of doubling previous damage, you simply roll it again. The exploding die is not enough to make it appealing or different nor does it give enough of an edge to speed weapons, considering the rarity of the chance (rolling a crit + hit + rolling a 4 on a d4)
Actually, the chances of getting something out of the exploding die (assuming that an 11 on a d20 is a hit) with a dagger (the weapon with the best chances) per attack are :
5% X 50% X 25% = 0,625% to get the exploding die to work at least once with a 20crit weapon.
10% X 50% X 25% = 1,250% to get the exploding die to work at least once with a 19-20crit weapon.
The math is correct, no point in quiestioning them (i'm saying so because you had objections/second thoughts before) trust me
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First post, registered just to join this conversation.
I'm surprised that no one has brought up the weapon speed / iterative attacks rule from the EQRPG d20 books. It was pretty simple and useful. All classes had a straight BAB, no iterative attacks from the BAB itself. You would take the weapon speed and subtract it from your BAB, and if there was a positive integer you would get another attack with that weapon. Daggers are fast, and it's easier to get multiple attacks with them, while a greatsword or great axe doesn't. There's rules in place to lower weapon speeds via Haste, or materials that weapons are crafted from. If I'm overlooking something that's already been discussed, please feel free to point it out to me.
I'm surprised that no one has brought up the weapon speed / iterative attacks rule from the EQRPG d20 books. It was pretty simple and useful. All classes had a straight BAB, no iterative attacks from the BAB itself. You would take the weapon speed and subtract it from your BAB, and if there was a positive integer you would get another attack with that weapon. Daggers are fast, and it's easier to get multiple attacks with them, while a greatsword or great axe doesn't. There's rules in place to lower weapon speeds via Haste, or materials that weapons are crafted from. If I'm overlooking something that's already been discussed, please feel free to point it out to me.
I'm honored to have you join my humble little thread.
What's EQRPG? Elf Quest?
That's, at the same time, pretty doggone cool and fairly hard to implement unless you have the EQRPG to steal from (and samples of like weapons).
I like the concept a lot.
I do happen to have the EQRPG book. (btw, it's EverQuest RPG 
)
Quick (delay 4): Gauntlet, Unarmed Strike, Brass Knuckles, Dagger, Punching Dagger, Spiked Gauntlet, Dart, Clawed Handwrap, Kama, Nunchaku, Sap, Siangham, Rapier, Scimitar, Shuriken, Whip
Standard (delay 5): Light Mace, Club, Heavy Mace, Shortspear, Quarterstaff, Spear, Javelin, Kukri, Throwing Axe, Light Hammer, Handaxe, Light Pick, Short Sword, Battleaxe, Longsword, Light Flail, Warhammer, Spiked Chain, Falchion, Heavy Flail, Guisarme, Longspear, Bastard Sword, (Composite) Shortbow, (Composite) Longbow
Slow (delay 6): Morningstar, Sling, Broadsword, Heavy Pick, Trident, Glaive, Greataxe, Greatclub, Greatsword, Halberd, Ranseur, Scythe, Two-handed Hammer, Net
These weapons are otherwise the same as d20 RAW.
EQRPG classes have 30 levels, without epic feat/progression. It's just a standard for the world. BAB does progress to 30 with a full BAB class. Most things are balanced around this.
There is a feat:
Double Attack [Combat]
"The character has developed a fast fighting style."
Prereq: "effectively can't take it unless class grants it, minimum of +9 BAB, some classes not until +12 BAB."
Benefit: A character with the Double Attack feat figures his iterative attacks as if his weapon's delay were 1 point lower. Thus a character with a +9 BAB using a standard delay weapon (having a delay of 5, normally granting him two attacks at +9/+4) figures his attacks as if it were quick delay (4), granting him three attacks at +9/+5/+1.
Another system-specific bit I like was the extreme customization of bows at the creation of the weapon. You could add modifications at creation that gave specific benefits, one of which was a delay lowering of 1. The options are: Material (wood), Material (string), Shaping (wood), Optional (Composite/Cams)
Material (wood) Equiv Cost DC
Hickory Short/Longbow 15/40 gp 10
Elm +1 Mighty 100 gp 13
Ash +2 Mighty 150 gp 15
Oak +3 Mighty 200 gp 17
Darkwood +4 Mighty 250 gp 20
Shadewood +5 Mighty 300 gp 23
Material (string) Range Increment Sneak Bonus Cost DC
Hemp 0 +0 1 sp -5
Linen +5 ft. +2 2 sp +2
Silk +10 ft. +4 10 gp +8
Shaping (wood) Atk Bonus Cost DC
None 0 0 0
Knifing +1 150 gp +5
Planing +2 300 gp +10
Optional Delay Range Increment Crit Multiplier Cost DC
None - - x3 - -
Composite - +10 ft x3 15 gp +2
Single-Cam - +20 ft* x4 100 gp +8
Double-Cam -1 +30 ft* x4 200 gp +12
*The range of shadewood bows increases dramatically with the introduction of cams. A shadewood bow with one cam has a range increment of +30ft and one with two cams has a range increment of +60ft.
**A bow cannot be both knifed and planed, nor can it have more than one of the composite, single-cam or double-cam components.
)Quick (delay 4): Gauntlet, Unarmed Strike, Brass Knuckles, Dagger, Punching Dagger, Spiked Gauntlet, Dart, Clawed Handwrap, Kama, Nunchaku, Sap, Siangham, Rapier, Scimitar, Shuriken, Whip
Standard (delay 5): Light Mace, Club, Heavy Mace, Shortspear, Quarterstaff, Spear, Javelin, Kukri, Throwing Axe, Light Hammer, Handaxe, Light Pick, Short Sword, Battleaxe, Longsword, Light Flail, Warhammer, Spiked Chain, Falchion, Heavy Flail, Guisarme, Longspear, Bastard Sword, (Composite) Shortbow, (Composite) Longbow
Slow (delay 6): Morningstar, Sling, Broadsword, Heavy Pick, Trident, Glaive, Greataxe, Greatclub, Greatsword, Halberd, Ranseur, Scythe, Two-handed Hammer, Net
These weapons are otherwise the same as d20 RAW.
EQRPG classes have 30 levels, without epic feat/progression. It's just a standard for the world. BAB does progress to 30 with a full BAB class. Most things are balanced around this.
There is a feat:
Double Attack [Combat]
"The character has developed a fast fighting style."
Prereq: "effectively can't take it unless class grants it, minimum of +9 BAB, some classes not until +12 BAB."
Benefit: A character with the Double Attack feat figures his iterative attacks as if his weapon's delay were 1 point lower. Thus a character with a +9 BAB using a standard delay weapon (having a delay of 5, normally granting him two attacks at +9/+4) figures his attacks as if it were quick delay (4), granting him three attacks at +9/+5/+1.
Another system-specific bit I like was the extreme customization of bows at the creation of the weapon. You could add modifications at creation that gave specific benefits, one of which was a delay lowering of 1. The options are: Material (wood), Material (string), Shaping (wood), Optional (Composite/Cams)
Material (wood) Equiv Cost DC
Hickory Short/Longbow 15/40 gp 10
Elm +1 Mighty 100 gp 13
Ash +2 Mighty 150 gp 15
Oak +3 Mighty 200 gp 17
Darkwood +4 Mighty 250 gp 20
Shadewood +5 Mighty 300 gp 23
Material (string) Range Increment Sneak Bonus Cost DC
Hemp 0 +0 1 sp -5
Linen +5 ft. +2 2 sp +2
Silk +10 ft. +4 10 gp +8
Shaping (wood) Atk Bonus Cost DC
None 0 0 0
Knifing +1 150 gp +5
Planing +2 300 gp +10
Optional Delay Range Increment Crit Multiplier Cost DC
None - - x3 - -
Composite - +10 ft x3 15 gp +2
Single-Cam - +20 ft* x4 100 gp +8
Double-Cam -1 +30 ft* x4 200 gp +12
*The range of shadewood bows increases dramatically with the introduction of cams. A shadewood bow with one cam has a range increment of +30ft and one with two cams has a range increment of +60ft.
**A bow cannot be both knifed and planed, nor can it have more than one of the composite, single-cam or double-cam components.
