Weapon Speed

[Water Bob]

Ideas about the attack-roll method that have come from the discussion above...

1. Take out the stipulation about having to have a successful attack. Don't need it.

2. Consider a flat 15 as the Speed number for all weapons.

3. Do we need to limit elligble weapons? Do we need to make catgory adjustments to some weapons?

4. We could extend the rule to same-category weapons by comparing the weight of a weapon.



Example for point #4.

A dagger is used against an opponent wielding a hand axe. Both are Light weapons. The dagger weighs 1 and the Hand Axe weighs 2, so that dagger would get one extra attack against the hand axe.



5. Instead of using the weapon categories, simply use the weight of each weapon in a 1E AD&D-style speed factor comparison. If the weapon is at least twice the weight of the other weapon, then the lighter weapon gets an extra attack. For two extra attacks, the lighter weapon must be a least 10 lbs lighter than the other weapon (not too many weapons over 10 lbs....may need to change that thought).



This is all speculation and thinking out loud, opening the floor for further comment.

 

[Water Bob]

I think I dig the second rule better. I think it will "play" better.

I do miss what Jimlock is saying, though. He's basically saying that it's "cool" that an punch get a Speed Attack more often than a dagger, and a dagger will get a Speed Attack more often than a short sword. But, with my new rule, they're all three light weapons and will get the same number of Speed Attacks.

I was thinking of calling the new rule: "A Fifteen". We've got "Taking Twenty" and "Taken Ten" and a "Critical Threat" and a "Critical Hit".

A Fifteen would be a speed attack (if I go with the option to have a natural "15" on the dice indicating a speed attack).





Here's an idea. Let me see what you think of this.

We'll make the Speed Attack roll akin to a Critical Hit throw.

How do we make Critical Hit throws? We roll a Critical Threat, then we make a check to see the Critical Hit occurs. Right?

How about a new thought....



WEAPON SPEED IDEA #3

What if we combined ideas from the first two Weapon Speed ideas I've had.

Consider this: A natural "15" on the attack throw indicates a Speed Attack may occur. With the second idea, this is where we compared size categories to see if a speed attack happens.

Instead of doing the comparison, let's just look at the damage on that first attack. If it's the highest amount of damage possible on the damage die throw, then a second speed attack is allowed.

That second part serves the same function as the Critical Hit check after a Critical Threat is rolled.

Neat idea?







EXAMPLE 1

Bedro the Zingaran is fighting with a stiletto. That weapon, like a dagger, does 1d4 damage.

On Bedro's attack throw, he d20 shows a natural 15. A speed attack is possible.

Speed Attacks aren't possible unless the first attack hits. So, if a combatant can't hit a target with a 15+ throw, then no Speed Attacks are possible against that foe. The foe is too armored or too quick or just too good for Bedro to get in a quick second jab.

Bedro needs a 17 to hit, but with his natural 15 on his d20 roll, plus his STR modifier, he rolls a total of 18.

This means that a Speed Attack is possible.

Bedro rolls damage. The d4 shows a "4" on the damage die. That's our Speed check. Bedro does get another Speed attack.

So, we go right into the second attack.

This is an exploding die situation, so if Bedro rolls exactly 15 on a the Speed Attack, then rolls a 4 on his d4 damage die, he'll get a third attack, and so on.





Note that with this third idea for weapon speed, we're back to the first idea of having "Speed Weapons" (like "Reach" weapons, or "Finesse" weapons in the Conan game).

Which weapons are elligible? Any that the GM thinks shold be elligible.

I think most one-handed weapons for which the character has proficiency (disallow the whip and maybe a few other weapons) and two-handed piercing weapons.

Regardless, all speed weapons have only 1 damage die (i.e. it can't have 2d4 for damage--those weapons are considered too bulky or otherwise unworthy of being counted as a speed weapon).

Your GM may reason different weapons for different reasons.





OK, folks, what do you think of that idea?

I actually like it the best out of the three ideas, as it seems to incorporate the best of both ideas.

Comments?





EDIT: And, I think the fact that the Speed Attack threat, on a natural roll of 15, having a 5% chance of happening, will "fix" any issue some of you had with a 6th level ranger having 3 attacks with a dagger. There's only a 5% chance that a check will be made, but if the check is made, the chance of the speed attack becomes weapon-dependent. Daggers are faster than short swords, and so on.

 

[Water Bob]

Another thought...

What if, when considering Speed Weapons, we limit the weight of the weapon to the character's STR mod?

A character with STR 11 or less would not be elligible for the Speed Rule.

A character with STR 12 or 13 is elligible with weapons that weight 1 lb or less.

A character with STR 14-15 can use weapons that weight 2 lbs or less.

A character with STR 16-17 can use weapons that weigh 3 lbs or less.

A character with STR 18-19 can use weapons that weight 4 lbs or less.



This way, stronger characters could use bigger weapons as Speed Weapons.



Or....since we're talking about Speed, maybe we make it DEX based. This would fit thieves better (who will be a prime user of this rule).

Thus...

A character with DEX 11 or less would not be elligible for the Speed Rule.

A character with DEX 12 or 13 is elligible with weapons that weight 1 lb or less.

A character with DEX 14-15 can use weapons that weight 2 lbs or less.

A character with DEX 16-17 can use weapons that weigh 3 lbs or less.

A character with DEX 18-19 can use weapons that weight 4 lbs or less.





That sounds reasonable, huh?

So, the stipulatoins on Speed Weapons would be:

1. The character must have proficiency with the weapon.

2. The weapon must have a single damage die (i.e. a weapon that does 2d4 damage is too bulky, not ballanced, or otherwise uworthy of being a speed weapon).

3. The weapon cannot weigh more than the character's DEX modifier in pounds.



(Note that there is no restrictions for one-handed/two-handed or piercing. The GM still needs to employ common sense, as the Whip should not be a speed weapon.)



[MENTION=6674931]Jimlock[/MENTION]: Thus, using the DEX/lbs. stipulation above, a war spear could not be used as a speed weapon unless the character has DEX 20+. I thought you'd like that.

 

[Jimlock]

ok.. i'll be answering to quite a few of your post since i've been away for a couple of days... so hold on

The critical range really has no impact on it. It's a flat 5% chance that the speed check will come up, just like in the 1E AD&D game it was a flat 2.7% chance.

Ok i thought that the speed weapon had a " speed range" of "critical range+1". I didn't realize it was a single # exactly one lower than the critical range. i misread it, sorry. So yes it is still a 5% chance no matter what. Still too complicated for no reason.. and with a major flaw that i will comment on later... (the same flaw as with your last version of the rule)...

All Light wepons vs. Two-Handed weapons get two extra attacks. All One-Handed weapons vs. Two-Handed weapons get one extra attack. And so on.

Well, yeah. Like the original 1E AD&D rule. This way, a dagger gets three attacks against a two-handed great sword but two attacks against a battleaxe. That makes sense to me. The great sword is taking longer to wield and recover before a strike. It gives the dagger user time to get inside and take his extra jab.

So, it is about weapon speed. Light weapons are "faster" than One-Handed weapons, and One-Handed weapons are faster than Two-Handed weapons.

That's pretty much how the other rule worked out--it just did it in a different way.

IMHO This is not true. While the enemy's weapon affects how one fights, it does not necessary affect one's "speed" with his weapon at hand.

When two highly dexterous rogues fight with daggers, they are both gonna make/do/take/attempt a certain number of swings/turns/thrusts/jabs etc. in a given time frame. The fact that one wields a dagger, is not going to reduce the other's speed or number of moves/swings with a dagger.
One of these rogues, fighting with a warrior wielding a two handed sword, is not gonna gain any more "speed" or "number of moves" because of the other's weapon. He is still as fast and he can still perform the same amount of moves in the same given time frame. Moreover, he might even do less of what he is capable of, because he won't be able to come so close to the fighter due to the great sword's reach. The rogue knows that a single swing from the great sword is probably gonna cut him in half, so he'll probably stay in the back and wait for the opportune moment to strike. ...it's not as simple as it looks.
IMO the number of moves one can make in a given time frame (round) depends both on the fightings styles and the weapons involved, but still, this does not affect one's actual speed with a given weapon, which is what we try to incorporate in the game's combat. And even though each attack roll is not deciphered as as single swing with a weapon. (Each attack roll actually represents "a number of attempts" to get past the opponents defenses), trying to figure out how many moves one is allowed because of fighting styles and weapons, would be too complicated to achieve, and would probable require a radical change in the combat system.

I like that part of the first rule, too. But, you, yourself, have a problem with the dagger being used by a 6th level ranger under the first method. With this new method, there is no problem with the 6th level ranger because his chance for a Speed Attack attempt is always 5%--not 25% with the dagger.

My actual problem was not with the Ranger's 25%... but with the potential abuse that might follow, given the increase of percentages due to iterative attacks/feats and the possibility of gaining a number of speed attacks in a round that would consequently render non-speed weapons not appealing. This 5% IMO takes the rule to other end of the spectrum, meaning that it undermines weapon speed more than it should.

One of the things I like best about the new rule is that it comes on the attack throw. You attack and know you're getting extra attacks or not almost instantly.

There's something that doesn't quite sit right with me on figuring the Speed Attack on the damage throw. It works, true. But, if I had my rathers, I'd rather it be on the attack throw.

Figuring the speed attack on the damage throw does not mean that you "connect" damage with the weapon's speed. You are simple using one of the two rolls made in a successful attack (attack roll + damage roll), so as to get what you want. What is great, is that the damage die, can actually connect to the weapon's speed. The smaller the die, the faster the weapon. Quick, simple, clear.
The d20 is always the same die no matter what weapon you use.

WEAPON SPEED IDEA #3

What if we combined ideas from the first two Weapon Speed ideas I've had.

Consider this: A natural "15" on the attack throw indicates a Speed Attack may occur. With the second idea, this is where we compared size categories to see if a speed attack happens.

Instead of doing the comparison, let's just look at the damage on that first attack. If it's the highest amount of damage possible on the damage die throw, then a second speed attack is allowed.

That second part serves the same function as the Critical Hit check after a Critical Threat is rolled.

Neat idea?

Ok... you've obviously missed something here...

do you now what the chances are for something like that to happen?

for a dagger thats is : 5% X 25% = 1,25%!!! ...

This means that one has 1,25% chances of getting a free speed weapon attack per attack...
(and thats with a dagger... with a shortsword that goes down to 0,8%)


I will not debate on that... i'm fairly certain that you simply missed calculating the probability...



As far as incorporating weapon weights, Str and Dex into the rule... i answer the following:

3.x ... or d20 in general if you may, is a rules-heavy system as it is.

Having started playing D&D with 2e... well this weights even more on me.

I don't want to complicate the system any more than it already is.

As much as i want to incorporate weapon speed in my game i would never do it on the expense of adding "resolution time" in combat.

The first rule is very simple. Your roll 1 in damage? you get an extra attack...
For the player that's super simple, because he knows beforehand whether his weapons are capable of this. The player has to only keep an eye out when a 1 comes up when he rolls the dice...
The DM has the slight disadvantage of checking weapons for each NPC... If the list is pretty clear...he eventually gets used to it over time.

Now....by having to compare weapon weights... taking into account Dex and Str ...and whatever might one figure out as more realistic (without necessarily BEiNG more realistic).. one loses A LOT of time... Moreover it begins to be so complicated that the DM will never really get used to it... It's highly likely that even after a year of playing this rule, he is still gonna be checking tables related to weight, Str, Dex...

Even the "simple" rule of having 3 categories of weapons so as to compare who fight with what in any give round is way too tiresome and lengthy... and not any more realistic if you ask me...

The first rule has the following advantages (in general, or compared to other rules):

1-You resolve weapon speed by dice ALREADY ROLLED. No more die rolling required...

2-You pay attention to a 1 coming up on the damage die. Very simple and clear.

3-You dot have to compare/calculate/think of anything else but that single 1 coming up.

4-The die you choose to decide for the weapon's speed happens to be VERY relevant to the a weapon's speed.

5-Even if you allow for 1 attack per hand/weapon, a characters stills imrpoves as the levels go by, because his chances of making those couple of speed weapon attacks improve accordingly.


The rest of the rules cannot keep up with the above. While they also resolve weapon speed by dice already rolled, they start getting complicated beyond that.

As far as the:

1. Take out the stipulation about having to have a successful attack. Don't need it.

So what? no big deal....

Believe me the first rule is the best by far

 

[Water Bob]

Still too complicated for no reason..

???

IMHO This is not true. While the enemy's weapon affects how one fights, it does not necessary affect one's "speed" with his weapon at hand.

Well, it seems reasonable to me, and that's the assumption of the original 1E AD&D rule that inspired all this--that its easier to speed attack a foe with a two-handed sword than it is a foe that's also using a dagger.







BTW, I realized a problem with my calculations earlier in the thread. I said the original rule had a 2.7% chance of doing a Speed Attack check. That's not true. 2.7% is the chance for a single double, and there are six doubles that can show on a 2d6 throw.

Thus, the chance of doing a speed attack check under the original 1E AD&D rule is 16.2% (round off to 16%).

One of these rogues, fighting with a warrior wielding a two handed sword, is not gonna gain any more "speed" or "number of moves" because of the other's weapon.

You're not picturing it the way 1E does. The assumption is a big, two-handed sword is heavy and unwieldy. You use it by swinging it in big, powerful arcs. And, it's slow. So, a person with a dagger might find an opportunity to get in there and jab twice while the two-handed users is in mid-arc.

Contrast this to a foe also using a dagger. Both are quick. There are no openings like there are with the two-handed users.

It's about maneuverablity of the weapon vs. the maneuverability of the other guy's weapon.

IMO the number of moves one can make in a given time frame (round) depends both on the fightings styles and the weapons involved, but still, this does not affect one's actual speed with a given weapon...

Go back and read Gygax's reasoning for the Speed Rule on pg. 66 of the 1E DMG. It makes a lot of sense to me, and it is about one's actual sped with a given weapon.

You can simply maneuver, wield, recover, and attack much quicker with a dagger than you can a big, heavy two-handed sword.

I like my new rule, too, that I posted above where I limit Speed Weapons to the weight equal to the DEX modifier. That way, speed weapons are limited by how quick and maneuverable the character is.

A DEX 18 character could use a heavy, bulky one-handed war hammer as a speed weapon where that weapon would be too heavy, bulky, and unwieldy for a character with DEX 15.







[quote(Each attack roll actually represents "a number of attempts" to get past the opponents defenses)[/quote]

Yes. This is true in D&D and in basic Conan. But, Conan can be played in a simulationist style where each die roll represents an actual swing.

In order to do that in D&D, you'd have to change the AC model and have armor soak up damage insted of making a character harder to hit.

So...that's one more difference between the Conan game and it's mother game, D&D.

..., trying to figure out how many moves one is allowed because of fighting styles and weapons, would be too complicated to achieve, and would probable require a radical change in the combat system.

Change to the system? Yes. Radical? That's a matter of opinion.

As I said above, the Conan game can be played in a simulationist style where each roll of the die represents one actual swing instead of the usual abstract system used in D&D. This is because, in Conan, you can track every blow, whether it hits, how much damage armor soaked up, if armor was penetrated.

Plus, there are tons of Combat Maneuvers in the Conan game, which are like Combat-Focused Feats that any character can use as long as they meet the Maneuver's prerequisites.

It's definitley not too complicated to achieve.

This 5% IMO takes the rule to other end of the spectrum, meaning that it undermines weapon speed more than it should.

I think you're right here.

This is a conditional probabilty problem. Probability = the Prob of A x Prob of B given A.

If my math is correct, this is Probability = 5% x (.05 * .25)

That's way under 1%.

Must re-think the "Fifteen".

Ok... you've obviously missed something here...

do you now what the chances are for something like that to happen?

for a dagger thats is : 5% X 25% = 1,25%!!! ...

Isn't your math off?

I think the conditional probability of what I wrote above is correct, and that means the chances of it happening to a dagger are way below 1%.

Either way, you're right. I've got to fix that.

Now....by having to compare weapon weights...

You're mixing up rule 2 and rule 3.

There's no comparison in rule 3. The weapon weight designates which weapon a character can use as a Speed Weapon.

Thus, with a DEX modifier of +2, the character can use any weapon that weighs 2 lbs or less that he's proficient with.

That's it. No comparison in combat.

Believe me the first rule is the bets by far

Maybe. But, maybe not. I like the idea of the check happening on the attack roll. I just need to figure a way to up the chance that it occurs.

 

[Water Bob]

OK, so let's take the best ideas from the first three, for our fourth attempt at a good Weapon Speed Rule.



WEAPON SPEED RULE #4

1. Speed Weapons:

- All have 1 damage die. If a weapon has more than one damage die (for example, a weapon that does 2d4 damage), then the weapon is considered too unwieldy, unbalanced, bulky, or otherwise unable to be used as a weapon of speed.

- Must be a weapon for which the character is proficient.

- Must weigh no more than a number of pounds equal to the character's DEX modifier. Thus, a character with DEX 16 (+3) can use a weapon that weighs 3 lbs. or less as a speed weapon. This also means that characters with DEX 12 or less are unable to take advantage of the speed rule.



2 - Speed Attack:

- Whenever a "1" is thrown for damage with a speed weapon, the character is allowed an extra, immediate Speed Attack. The Speed Attack is a free attack using the same weapon with the same attack modifiers on the same target. It is a quick, double jab or double hit with the weapon.







THOUGHT: What if, in addition to the DEX requirement for Speed Weapons that there is a STR requirement? The character must have STR 10? Or maybe STR 12 as a minumum STR?

Thus,

A dagger weighs 1 lb. So, in order to use it as a Speed Weapon, the character must have STR 12+ and DEX 12+.

A hunting spear weighs 2 lb. So, in order to use it as a Speed Weapon, the character must have STR 12+ and DEX 14+.

A one-handed battleaxe weighs 3 lb. So, in order to use it as a Speed Weapon, the character must have STR 12+ and DEX 16+.



OK. Gotta leave now. Let's open up Version #4 for comments.

 

[Jimlock]

That's like the first one + the weight & Dex implications... right?

i still like the first one without any further implications!!

 

[Water Bob]

That's like the first one + the weight & Dex implications... right?

i still like the first one without any further implications!!

Well, I'm still deciding. Maybe the first rule is the best. I'm looking at the angles.

What were your changes to the first rule again? I'd like to take a closer look at them. Can you spell them out in a short, detailed post?

 

[Jimlock]

Well, I'm still deciding. Maybe the first rule is the best. I'm looking at the angles.

What were your changes to the first rule again? I'd like to take a closer look at them. Can you spell them out in a short, detailed post?

i'll quote my first post... got it all covered there...

SPEED WEAPONS:

Whenever a successful melee attack is made with a speed weapon*, and minimum damage is rolled (e.g. 1 for a dagger's 1d4),

the character wielding the weapon has found an opportunity for a second, quick strike. Thus, the character is entitled to a free attack

against the same opponent with the same weapon and at the same BAB. The character has to be proficient with the weapon(s) used.

The character is allowed one single free attack per weapon/hand used during his round. So if a character uses a short-sword in his primary hand,

he is allowed one free attack with the shortsword no matter the number of his iterative attacks. If the character uses a shortsword in his primary

hand and a dagger in his off hand, he is allowed two free attacks, one for each weapon/hand. For these free attacks,

the character does not apply his strength bonus to damage nor any sort of precision damage. Critical hits are resolved normally.

The number of free attacks count against the character's round and not against his turn. This means that free attacks gained in AoOs

do not count against his free attacks allowed for his round. For purposes of gaining free attacks with unarmed strikes, minimum

damage is considered an actual 1 on a d6, and not both 1 and 2 (unarmed strike damage: 1d3).


*Speed weapons are all light melee (simple/martial/exotic) weapons, including the rapier and the shortspear. The light shield and the light mace are excluded from the list.

I do not necessarily see this ONLY as "a double jolt" performed by piercing weapons. Slashing weapons can be wielded pretty fast as well. I can easily picture a dagger performing a "double slash" at great speed. That's why i did not restrict the list to piercing weapons.

i surely keep... as in my post:

1-removal of precision damage
2-weapons allowed
3- 1 on d6 only for unarmed...

Some second thoughts on Str bonus... and number of speed attacks allowed per round.
I'm thinking of dropping one.. but not both... don't know yet.....

?

 

[Water Bob]

Which weapons should be considered "Speed Weapons"?

I'm thinking single damage die and 2 lbs or less.