Weapon Speed

[JamesonCourage]

What about a free extra attack that, if it hits, deals an extra damage die? No Strength modifier, no precision damage (like sneak attack). That sounds like a pretty good middle ground to me.

 

[Jimlock]

The math does get complicated, but there certainly is a reason to calculate the percentage of both a success at the attack and the percentage of the Speed Attack being allowed. If a character with a dagger only has a 10% chance to hit a foe, he's going to have a Speed Attack probabilty of much less than 10%. But, if the same character has a 70% chance to hit another foe, then his Speed Attack probablity is much higher than with the first foe.

A lot of things have to happen in order for the Speed Attack to be successful...

1. Character has to make a successful attack with a Speed Weapon.

2. Damage on that blow has to be rolled as a "1".

3. And, the Speed attack has to be successful.



So, not only does a character, in effect, have to hit the target twice, but also has to roll minimum damage on the first attack.

All of that, put-together, makes the chances of a Speed Attack happening, then being successful, very slim.

WB, permit me to say, but you are thinking of this the wrong way. First of all the: "3. And, the Speed attack has to be successful." is COMPLETELY irrelevant. Having good chances of making an extra attack IS the big deal here.

When a fighter reaches 6th level and gets his second attack, its a very big deal for the fighter. There is no point in trying to calculate the chances the fighter has to actually succeed on his second attack, so as to "appraise" the value of the second attack. The value of this second attack is already big , because the fighter gets "some" chances to deal DOUBLE the damage he used to.
As far as the: "1. Character has to make a successful attack with a Speed Weapon." it is not as completely irrelevant, but its of minor importance as well... why?
By the time a characters gets a second attack, his chances to make a single hit are round about 75% (assuming that by a rolling an 11 (50%) he hits). This 75% is the minimum! By the time a character gets a third and a fourth attack, this goes up to 85 and 90%. What i'm trying to say is that after a certain point (which is not that high in the scale of levels), its only natural to assume that a fighterish character is gonna land at least one blow for certain.

...all the above, consequently lead us to the fact that the "2. Damage on that blow has to be rolled as a "1"." is what matters most by far.

As i said before, this 1 is translated into 16,6% on a D6, and into 25% on a d4.
This means that with a single successful hit, you allow a character to get a chance (16,6% or 25%) of dealing DOUBLE the damage he usually deals
Now... is it reasonable to give such an ability to speed weapons? Is it reasonable to make the speed weapons almost as equally important as the increase of iterative attacks a character receives by going up in level? i don't think so.

On my previous post i gave you an example with a 6th level ranger with two shortswords at hand. The numbers my example provided are enough for me to come to the conclusion that:
if you allow more that one free attack per hand/weapon on a character, while allowing str bonus and precision damage at the same time, the rule gets instantly broken.



But lets take the same example with daggers instead of shortshords. And lets assume once more that our 6th lvl ranger gets three attacks per round.

With a 50% to hit (11 on a D20), chances for the ranger to land at least one blow are 87,5%. This tells us thats its highly unlikely that the ranger will miss on all 3 attacks (12,5%).

With a 50% to hit (11 on a D20), chances for the ranger to land at least two blows are 50%!!.

So with a 87,5% chance to hit at least once, and with a 50% to hit at least two times... its only natural to assume that this 25% the dagger offers of each successful hit is VERY VERY important.

That's about a 20% chance that the ranger is gonna get at least one extra attack because he uses speed weapons! ....20%...


You know.... an easy way to figure out whether a rule is broken... is to take the place of the player and try to think as he does... that's what i do most of the time...

In this case i go....

am i gonna choose a weapon that deals 1d8 points of damage?

...or...

am i gonna choose a weapon that deals 1d4 points of damage, is much lighter, it allows me to use my Dex to hit (Weapon Finesse) and by 6th level it gives me a 20% to
get at least one extra attack each round?....... and by 11 lvl... and by taking the appropriate TWF feats i can get past 50% chance for getting at least once extra attack?

Let me tell you. I'd pick the dagger without a second thought.....




Now...if i had to consider that i can get only one free attack per hand/weapon each round. if i had to consider that i do not apply my str bonus, nor my precision damage to these free attacks.....
well... now i'm before a dilemma...... and that is enough to tell me how a rule is balanced.

 

[Theo R Cwithin]

@Water Bob - My concern isn't so much with the change in damage die, but the change in the damage die considered alongside changes in the damage modifier (ie, the behavior of d4 vs d6 weapons, with STR+4 vs STR+8 modifiers).

HOWEVER.... I've run some numbers in a spreadsheet, and I think I have to retract my concerns!

The net effect of this speed rule appears to be to just add a nearly constant damage to the expected damage without the speed rule-- regardless of the modifier to damage! (??!??!!?). In the case of a 1d4 weapon, that added damage per round is about +.63 speed rule advantage over normal; for a 1d6 weapon, it's +.58; for a 1d8 weapon, it's +.56.

(To get these numbers I ran modifiers from STR+0 to STR+25; assumed averages for a single weapon with a 100% hit chance, over 12 rounds; and didn't account for cases in which two fast attacks land due to rolling two 1's in a row.)

I'm really curious to hear if someone more mathy gets the same sorts of results I get, because this is seriously counter-intuitive to me.

But until someone can double check my numbers and show I messed up, I stand corrected, Water Bob! Huzzah!

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

You would need to state what happens to weapon effects that trigger on hits. Such as wounding, I'd rather a dagger of wounding than a sword a wounding if I could trigger wounding on a speed attack. [Edit: The 1d3 spiked gauntlets of wounding (or better, greater wounding) really looking nice. ]

Or if you allow crits on the speed attack does the crit also trigger crit-triggered magic effects, such as fiery burst.

 

[Water Bob]

regardless of the modifier to damage!

[/I]

That's what I've been saying. It adds 1 + STR mod at an interval respective of the damage die. If its a d4, the 1 + STR mod is added once per four rounds, on average. It its a d6, the speed attack adds 1 + STR mod damage per 6 rounds, and so on.

It gives small weapons a bit up an umph, but not enough to get worried about.

But until someone can double check my numbers and show I messed up, I stand corrected, Water Bob! Huzzah!

 

[Water Bob]

WB, permit me to say, but you are thinking of this the wrong way. First of all the: "3. And, the Speed attack has to be successful." is COMPLETELY irrelevant. Having good chances of making an extra attack IS the big deal here.

I just ran for you, step by step, how much damage a weapon would do, on average, using the Speed Rule and normal damage modifiers, for 10 rounds.

Don't forget that your 6th level ranger, using two weapons, and getting three attacks per round is pretty powerful by itself. You need to figure that up first, then figure it again with the Speed Attack added, to see what effect the Speed Attack is having.

I can tell you though, without having to go through all that math. You'll net, on average 1 + STR mod extra damage respective of the damage die, per attack.

Thus, if your short sword + dagger wielding ranger (with STR 18) gets three attacks a round (short sword twice plus dagger once), he'll get...

1 + 4 = 5 every 6 rounds, twice.
1 + 4 = 5 every 4 rounds.

Thus, in 6 combat rounds, he'll rack up an extra 15 points of damage due to the Speed Rule, on average. That's an average of 2.5 points per round.

I don't think 2.5 points a round is an issue, do you?

And, that 2.5 point average occurs only if the Ranger has a 100% chance of hitting his target. When you lower his chance to hit, it becomes longer until a Speed Attack pops up, thus lowering the average 2.5 points per round.

In other words, the bonus 2.5 points per round is the best it will ever get for the ranger with the short sword and dagger with 3 attacks per round. Every miss he makes lowers that damage bonus per round.




If you remove the STR modifier, then it becomes an extra 3 points of damage every 6 rounds, which, for me, is not worth the effort of having the rule. Too little gain.

 

[JamesonCourage]

I'm not sure if it's this way in Conan, but in 3.5, if you have an 18 Strength, you deal +6 damage with a one-handed or two-handed weapon when you're using two hands. So I think the math is a little closer to this (if that rule is the same):

STR 18 character with d4 Speed Weapon.
1. Hit 1: 2 + 4 = 6
2. Hit 1: 2 + 4 = 6
3. Hit 1: 2 + 4 = 6
4. Hit 1: 1 + 4 = 5
Speed Hit: 2 + 4 = 6
5. Hit 1: 2 + 4 = 6
6. Hit 1: 2 + 4 = 6
7. Hit 1: 2 + 4 = 6
8. Hit 1: 1 + 4 = 5
Speed Hit: 2 + 4 = 6
9. Hit 1: 2 + 4 = 6
10. Hit 1: 2 + 4 = 6
Total Average Damage for 10 rounds = 70 points.

STR 18 character with d6 Speed Weapon.
1. Hit 1: 3 + 4 = 7
2. Hit 1: 3 + 4 = 7
3. Hit 1: 3 + 4 = 7
4. Hit 1: 3 + 4 = 7
5. Hit 1: 3 + 4 = 7
6. Hit 1: 1 + 4 = 5
Speed Hit: 3 + 4 = 7
7. Hit 1: 3 + 4 = 7
8. Hit 1: 3 + 4 = 7
9. Hit 1: 3 + 4 = 7
10. Hit 1: 3 + 4 = 7
Total Average Damage for 10 rounds = 75 points.

STR 18 character with d8 Speed Weapon. (if the weapon is +6 damage)
1. Hit 1: 4 + 6 = 10
2. Hit 1: 4 + 6 = 10
3. Hit 1: 4 + 6 = 10
4. Hit 1: 4 + 6 = 10
5. Hit 1: 4 + 6 = 10
6. Hit 1: 4 + 6 = 10
7. Hit 1: 4 + 6 = 10
8. Hit 1: 1 + 6 = 7
Speed Hit: 4 + 6 = 10
9. Hit 1: 4 + 6 = 10
10. Hit 1: 4 + 6 = 10
Total Average Damage for 10 rounds = 107 points.

STR 18 character with d10 Speed Weapon. (if the weapon is +6 damage)
1. Hit 1: 5 + 6 = 11
2. Hit 1: 5 + 6 = 11
3. Hit 1: 5 + 6 = 11
4. Hit 1: 5 + 6 = 11
5. Hit 1: 5 + 6 = 11
6. Hit 1: 5 + 6 = 11
7. Hit 1: 5 + 6 = 11
8. Hit 1: 5 + 6 = 11
9. Hit 1: 5 + 6 = 11
10. Hit 1: 1 + 6 = 7
Speed Hit: 5 + 6 = 11
Total Average Damage for 10 rounds = 117 points.

So, unless I made a mistake, it looks like this:
d4: 70
d6: 75
d8: 85 1h, 107 2h
d10: 117 2h

 

[Jimlock]

ok... i did a little experiment of my own. (..i also wanted to see if the numbers i came up before were real)

the 6th lvl ranger with two daggers (3 attacks/round), assuming that an 11 on a d20 is a hit 50%, in 50 rounds gets:

at least two hits in a round: 26/50 ---> 52%

all three hits OR no hit in a round: 5/50 ---> 10%
That means that he gets to hit at least once in a round 90% of the time, and that he makes all three hits 10% of the time.
(chances are the same because its a 50-50 case)

ok... so the numbers i gave in my previous post are ok. Now whats is interesting is this:

He got at least one speed weapon attack in 13 out of the 50 rounds. 13/50 ---> 26%
Now that means that the ranger gets 26% for at least an extra attack each round!

Without playing by speed weapon rules, that like giving the ranger a 1d4 each round, and if he scores a 1 he gets at least one extra attack!

....And now i'm thinking again...is this something i wanna give to light weapons...? with full benefits during this extra attack..?

Personally i say no.. not with full benefits anyway...


All the above calculations stand for a 6th lvl TW fighter... imagine the chances at higher levels due to combination of iterative attacks with feats such as "improved two weapon fighting" and "greater two weapon fighting"... also imagine the complications with magical/powerful weapons. Personally i can easily see this as getting abused.

 

[Water Bob]

I'm not sure if it's this way in Conan, but in 3.5, if you have an 18 Strength, you deal +6 damage with a one-handed or two-handed weapon when you're using two hands.

It is like that in Conan, but (1) the weapon has to be big enough to accomodate both hands, and (2) I wanted to keep as many factors as I could even in the data above, so I chose one-handed melee weapons only.

Plus, a stipulation of my Speed Rule is that the weapon be one-handed unless it's a piercing weapon. It can be debated if something like a Bastard Sword can be a Speed Weapon when used two-handed.

Now that means that the ranger gets 26% for at least an extra attack each round!

How is that different from what I told you above?

I said, "Thus, in 6 combat rounds, he'll rack up an extra 15 points of damage due to the Speed Rule, on average. That's an average of 2.5 points per round."

If you're dealing with a weapon that does 1d4 damage, and you're getting an average of 2.5 points extra per round...that's averaging a free attack each round*.

You say you don't want to do that (and that's fine--it's your game!), but if you do as you say and not add in the STR mod to the Speed Attack, your extra damage drops to 3 points every 6 rounds (or .5 a point in a round).

You are looking at the worst-case scenario (which is a good thing to do)--the character class that can take the most advantage of the Speed Rule, at a level where he gets 3 attacks per round normally--and you're saying that you're happy with an extra .5 point of damage per round?

What about the thief that uses a dagger? He'll be much less than .5 point a round.

If you're going to do that...then why use the rule at all?





*Plus, you say that it doesn't matter what the character's chance to hit his target is. I say it matter a great deal.

The math up there was done assuming a 100% chance to hit. That extra attack per round for your 6th level ranger only occurs if the ranger has a 100% chance to hit per round. If his chance to hit drops to 50%, then his extra damage per round drops to 1.25...which is still close to an extra d4 hit, I'll grant you.

If he's got a 25% chance to hit, that extra damage drops again to less than 1 point per round.

Thus, your 6th level ranger will pound on the easier targets (and average an extra d4 attack per round), but this will drop to an extra d4 attack every other round with the hard targets (and every third round with the very hard targets).

You don't think that's acceptible for a class that is designed to fight this way?

I think its fine.

If your 6th ranger uses bigger weapons, the number of extra attacks he gets will drop, also. So, he get an extra d4 attack every round with a d4 weapon--but that's only going to happen with a d4 weapon. (Run your numbers with a d6 and d8 weapon, and see what you get!).

 

[Water Bob]

Without playing by speed weapon rules, that like giving the ranger a 1d4 each round, and if he scores a 1 he gets at least one extra attack!

....And now i'm thinking again...is this something i wanna give to light weapons...? with full benefits during this extra attack..?

Personally i say no.. not with full benefits anyway...

Besides what I said in my first response (that the Speed Rule might as well be ignored if you don't use STR mod on Speed Attack damage), what you're talking about here is an extra 2 points of damage, on average, per round.

That's not acceptible? With a character class that is designed to fight this way?

2 extra points of damage per round is abuse?

I say it's boosting small, light weapons, making them a tad more viable.

Use bigger weapons with your 6th level ranger and watch the frequency of extra attacks go down.