Weapons of Legacy: does anyone have it yet?

[Vocenoctum]

OK, so the Weapons of Legacy system is different to the Scion system presented in Unearthed Arcana and it sounds different to the Bonded Magic Items system presented in DMG II. How does it compare to the Levelled Treasures system that featured back in Dragon #289? I'm getting some decent use out of that and would happily skip another hardback purchase if the Weapons of Legacy approach is something similar...

I dont' recall the Dragon one offhand, but look at the online stuff and you should get a decent idea.

I've got a character with a personal sword that I'd rather continuely advance. He's a warrior type and paying to keep enchanting it is pricey. DM wouldn't let me use 3e OA Samurai, and was leery about Kensai from CW. I ended up using Ancestral Relic from Book of Exalted Deeds, which has worked out okay, but I'm still feeling that advancement of the sword is too slow.

UA's Scions were horrible IMO. DMG2's Bonded Items were good, similar to Ancestral Relic really, but most of the rituals were silly.

Weapons of Legacy is good for the items they have, but I think founding a new legacy will be much harsher than simply using Ancestral Relic or Bonded from DMG2. A lot fo the lesser abilities are just blah, and scaling on some of the abilities seems absent. (there are varying levels of Intelligence, but no way to "raise" a previous level. You just purchase a new level I guess. They also seem to overrate intelligence, given you're not getting any of the co-abilities of an Intelligent item.)

To found a legacy, you have to pay the personal costs (skill, BAB, HP, whatever) plus the normal GP costs of the rituals (say, 1500-2500 for least, 12-14K for lesser, 38-40K for greater rituals), you also have to pay XP! (500xp/1100 xp/ 1700xp)

So, I'm still at a loss.

Besides that though, Legacy Champion is a "PrC", but in effect, it's a Class Template. New to me. In fact, I think a lot of the Legacy stuff is sort of Templates. (the longsword +1 with a Durindana template for instance.)

 

[Mark Hope]

Thanks . The systems sound pretty similar, but the WoL seems a bit more involved and detailed, which might not actually be a bad thing. The system from the Dragon magazine assumes that the item is created beforehand (albeit at a lower cost) and then its powers are activated by the wielder spending xp - the WoL system seems more flexible than that. I'll give it a proper look over when I get a chance to see the actual book.

(100 posts! Wahoo!)

 

[Nightfall]

*is just waiting for this week's paycheck to clear come Thursday...and then more D&D swag comes his way.*

All I can say is I'll probably write my own bonding stuff and add in additional penalities if necessary. I can live with taking away a warrior HP or even draining off a point of physical/spiritual stat (phys= Str, Dex, Con; spiritual= Int, Wis, Cha). But skill points?! BAB?! No way. Other than that, I'll keep trying out various things.

 

[Silveras]

I can see why the Weapons of Legacy are different from previous systems for item growth.

The Scions of Unearthed Arcana (originally in the Game Mechanics' release "Artifacts of the Ages: Swords and Staves of Power") are a class-based attempt to balance the growth of power. You give up pure progression as whatever regular PC class you had to take a custom Prestige Class whose advancement gives you a little less than a regular class + access to more abilities within the artifact-type item.


The Leveled Items approach and the Ancestral Relic exalted feat (inspired by the Ancestral Daisho of OA) strive for balance by slowing your advancement through expenditure of XP. Not as much as if you were making the item, but a chunk nonetheless. As mentioned previously, because 3.5 has a compensation mechanism built into the XP rules (so that when you fall behind, you start earning more XP to catch up), this is not the balancing factor it was in 3.0 (when OA was written; Ancestral Relic is an Exalted feat, requiring the DM's permission to be taken, so it is more balanced that way).


Bonded items, as presented in the DMG II, are a way for non-spellcasters to make their own magic equipment, which has the added benefit of working only for them. Of course, that "benefit" may be of dubious value when you try to pass off your flaming sword to someone else, and the flame goes out. This system is really just an expansion of the standard rules to non-spellcasters under some limitations. Standard rules allow for the addition of new magical features as the character's level rises; this just makes that somewhat less ugly by making it unnecessary for the spellcasters to sacrifice their XP for the party Fighter to get a better magic weapon.


Weapons of Legacy, though, are different. The approach here is more strongly geared toward story-based campaigns. The example items that inspired the book are the One Ring of Lord of the Rings, Excalibur of Arthurian legend, and Stormbringer of the Elric Saga. These are decidedly *not* the stereotypical D&D disposable "+1 swords". Weapons of Legacy offer multiple powers, many of which are *not* standard abilities that could be added under the other systems. Some are, and some are "merely" spell-like abilities; but quite a few are just unique to the item, based on its backstory.

Weapons of Legacy, in many cases (but not all), offer 1 or 2 new abilities every level from 5-20. They are divided into 3 tiers, and require up to 3 rituals (and feats) to unlock them. Once the "tier" is unlocked, the PC gains the abilities immediately upon reaching the required level and pays any other associated costs (skill points, etc.). Some only have 1 "tier" of abilities, others have 2, but most of the examples had all 3.

The DM is cautioned not to reduce the treasure for the encounters where the PCs obtain the Weapon of Legacy. The idea is to make it seem quite "ordinary", until the PCs do some research and learn of its history. When they choose to activate the powers, it becomes more valuable, and so gold is spent to "return" the excess treasure value.

The other penalties only apply as long as the PC keeps the Weapon. Spending some gold and XP again to renounce the bond negates the To Hit, Save, Skill, etc., penalties.

 

[Dark Psion]

Are there any rules on how many people can have access to a single weapon of legacy?

If a weapon was passed down from Father to Son, can the 20th level Father still unleash it's full potiential?

Can more than one party member use it?

Are all the items in the book weapons? It seems to me that the Rings of Elemental Command are almost Legacy Items with their requirement to unlock their greater powers.

 

[Silveras]

Are there any rules on how many people can have access to a single weapon of legacy?

If a weapon was passed down from Father to Son, can the 20th level Father still unleash it's full potiential?

Can more than one party member use it?

Are all the items in the book weapons? It seems to me that the Rings of Elemental Command are almost Legacy Items with their requirement to unlock their greater powers.

I do not see anything saying that more than one creature cannot wield an item of Legacy. HOWEVER, each must separately perform the necessary rituals to gain access to the powers of the item. If my PC has performed the Least Legacy Ritual for Mondo*, the Sword of Frozen Death, he now has access to the Icy Touch power (all water within 10' becomes ice, usable 2/day) and the Cold Native power (no damage from cold) as well as the +2 enhancement and the frost burst powers. Should my PC hand your PC the sword, my PC loses all the powers, and the sword is a +1 sword to your PC. If your PC has also performed the Least Legacy Ritual, he gets the powers rated for characters up to his level.

Performing the ritual usually means something like:
Go to this obscure place
Do something difficult there (like face in single combat a superior foe)
Spend gold and XP to complete the ritual

Such weapons are not likely to be passed down or shared. The inspirations are the One Ring (yes, I know Bilbo passed it on, but that is called out as a momentous event in and of itself), Excalibur, and Stormbringer; none of these are items that are likely to be "shared". Of the two, the passed down notion is slightly more likely. It is unlikely that a second member of the party would be allowed to "borrow" the item long enough to perform the necessary bonding tasks and rituals. These are meant to be the signature items of a character.

No, not all are weapons. The book states very clearly that, while the title is Weapons of Legacy, the rules are written to address Wondrous Items, Armor, Shields, Rods, Staves, and more. Several of the example items are non-weapons.

In addition, one section talks about re-working some of the more powerful standard items to be Items of Legacy. Two examples are given: the Holy Avenger, and the Staff of Power.

 

[Laman Stahros]

Actually, there are rules for borrowing a Legacy item without having to do the rituals. I don't have my book at hand right now, so I can't describe them, but they exist.

 

[Silveras]

Actually, there are rules for borrowing a Legacy item without having to do the rituals. I don't have my book at hand right now, so I can't describe them, but they exist.

Oops.. yes, you are correct... Sharing a Legacy. It is, however, not the standard rule, and is offered as a variant.

In summary:
It must be voluntary for both the normal owner and the borrower. The borrower gains negative levels, 1 per Legacy "tier" the normal owner has unlocked. If the borrower does not have enough Hit Dice to get all the "tiers", s/he gets only as many "tiers" as s/he can take negative levels. The borrower gets all the abilities that the normal owner gets, whether or not his/her actual level is the same. Creatures that cannot take negative levels cannot borrow a Legacy Item.

 

[Nightfall]

Silver,

Any chance you could compare Weapons with the optional rules in say...DMG II or perhaps the Scions? *forgets if you did... or not*

 

[Silveras]

Silver,

Any chance you could compare Weapons with the optional rules in say...DMG II or perhaps the Scions? *forgets if you did... or not*

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Comparison