Weapons of Legacy preview

[Nightfall]

Bro S,

Even so burning a few feats and skills often aren't NEARLY as bad as the apparent burning now for a measly weapon.

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

Bro S,

Even so burning a few feats and skills often aren't NEARLY as bad as the apparent burning now for a measly weapon.

It is if that PrC is meant to be used with this measly weapon and no other weapon.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Krusty!!!

Hey Nightfall matey!

Nice to see my favorite epic level man involved!

Long time no see mate, I trust you have been keeping well?

Anyway I do agree, the Attack penalty seems more than a bit excessive. I mean if they want a balance, I'd take out like an ability score drain as I stated and maybe a permanent HP loss. But all those things? No way. That's just way too much.

I'd be interested to see what you can come up with in comparision Krusty mate.

...well you know it would be epic...something like deity Soul Objects, living artifacts that gain power in tandem with the deity. Sentient splinters of divine essence that are are receptacles of godly power...something like that you mean.

 

[Nightfall]

Krusty,

Life is decent. I've had my fair shares ups and downs, but overall, when I see your postings, I get a familiar tinge of joy.

Wow.

Now that's just. Wow. Sentient diefic artifacts that go up with a god's power. Now THAT'S epic!

I could SO see something like that in either Faerun (where you keep stepping on gods half the time) or Scarred Lands (Hey just cause you dismembered a Titan once, doesn't mean the same tricks will work again! Sentient artifact weapons...dude Corean, Chardun and especially Vangal would have a MASSIVE field day.)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Chieromancer mate!

I don't agree with your analysis. .

Lets not be too hasty here.

If it is worth a little over 200 000 gp (and I think this is a fair value- maybe 260 000?),.

Thats what I thought initially, however if you look at the bonuses for adding things like Gust of Wind 3/day to an intelligent weapon they don't seem to be increasing things by x1.5. In which case its only about 207,500 GP.

then since 200 000 gp is equal to the difference in wealth between 19th and 20th level, it is worth about a feat.

That doesn't seem practical, see my final comments.

To make up the "little bit more" you could spend the 55,200 gp. So 55,200 plus a "legacy feat" to master Desert Wind..

The legacy feats are free. Read sonofapreacherman's posts in this thread.

Sacrificing saves, attack bonuses, etc.,... that's too much..

I agree.

Look at it this way; say it were possible for a character to invest a feat so that his wealth was that of a character 1 level higher..

There is a feat that does this in some d20 product, you take it at first level, its like 'wealthy family' or something like that..

He spends the feat, and with his extra wealth buys a defending flaming burst scimitar with various special powers. As he goes up levels he spends a little wealth every so often to boost the plus on his weapon, give it an extra power, and so on. Just enough to stay approximately equal to his comrades. At the end of it all, he has Desert Wind at the cost of a feat and maybe 50 or 60 thousand gp.

But I really can't see it being worth 15 feats. 1 feat, yes. You could make an argument for 2, since it grants a bonus feat. But no more than that.

It seems we are both rating the weapon from opposite perspectives, glass either half empty or half full. When perhaps the thing to do is rate it as a percentage to total wealth and then convert it. Which means the weapon is initially equivalent to 6 or 7 feats.

 

[Ed Cha]

The product page is here:
http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/178620000

 

[Sir Brennen]

This argument seems to conflate several things. First, Excalibur doesn't seem to be the kind of weapon to grow with the wielder -- it just seems to be the +5 Kingship Blade and that's really the end of it. So other than "winning it as treasure," no, Arthur didn't have to pay a price. In D&D terms, that price is entirely in that weapon, instead of getting something else (gold, gems, art, magic wands, magic girldes, whatever).

Even if Excalibur *was* the sort of weapon that grew with the wielder, it could certainly be argued that Arthur paid a "off-stage" mechanical sacrifice. He couldn't wield magic like Merlin, after all -- he instead gained powers with his weapon.

Well, Excalibur was one of the weapons cited by the text on the WotC preview, being a historical weapon of great history and power. However, I think this does point out that D&D is, as often has been mentioned, pretty much a fantasy sub-genre unto itself, with it's own assumptions and premises. Weapons of Legacy looks to be adding another trope to that collection.

From what I can tell, these weapons are meant to be your main weapon as you gain levels, not, as it may seem, as pure storytelling devices. That latter role is best served by artifacts, which are "dangerous magic" incarnate, not part and parcel of a character's power.

I think you mis-understood me. I'm not talking about the items as plot devices when I said story logic, I mean what is the rationale behind the loss of skills, saves, HPs and Attack Bonus if you had to describe it in terms a character could understand?

To get a normal magic item, it costs gold to buy it. That's something both the player and his character can understand. At the opposite end is XP, which is a little more abstract, so it's a little easier to brush off, though there have been plenty of threads here about what it means to "spend XP". But these items affect things that are a bit more tangible for the character, so there should be some story-based reason why (and with the emphasis on history and fluff these items have, it better be good.)

I mean, a weapon that actually lowers your combat ability? Even if there is a net gain from the weapon itself, why would a spellcaster in the fantasy world create such a thing? Because it's cheaper? And the impact of all of these penalties on so many other aspects of play, especially the save penalties.

Another problem I see is that if all the items in WoL work this way, it's going to be less emphasis on non-combat aspects of play (or those aspects will be more prone to failure), as skill points are sucked away. Also, now most magic item purchases will be for things to compensate for the penalties imposed by the Personal Costs columns.

Again, this is all based on a single preview - still don't know what the legacy feats do; perhaps they help compensate for the penalties in some way.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I mean what is the rationale behind the loss of skills, saves, HPs and Attack Bonus if you had to describe it in terms a character could understand?

I'd use the same logic that says a wizard gains less hp than a fighter, a cleric gains less skills than the rogue, the paladin gets more saves than the sorcerer, etc...

It's because as you train more with this weapon, you train less in other things. You're spending time learning how to wrench a fireball from open flame, not taking blows, avoiding spells, or learning the courtly arts. You're learning how to effectively use these weapon abilities, and that takes time that you would normally be spending honing your attack prowess, etc.

So you're less talented at some things than other members of your class because you have spent time unlocking this weapons' power instead of just being a fighter, or whatever.

I mean, a weapon that actually lowers your combat ability? Even if there is a net gain from the weapon itself, why would a spellcaster in the fantasy world create such a thing? Because it's cheaper? And the impact of all of these penalties on so many other aspects of play, especially the save penalties.

Well, I am under the impression that these items are all exceptional, above most weapons, things that must be mastered gradually, at great cost. This isn't just a weapon. Wielding this places you as an archetype, on a specific path, with powers and abilities like that a class would grant you. These aren't just things spellcasters create -- they're things warriors dedicate their lives to wielding.

And when you're spending time unlocking the powers of this mystical tool of the gods, you're spending less time learning how to dodge spells, and so you take save penalties.

 

[Sir Brennen]

It's because as you train more with this weapon, you train less in other things. You're spending time learning how to wrench a fireball from open flame, not taking blows, avoiding spells, or learning the courtly arts. You're learning how to effectively use these weapon abilities, and that takes time that you would normally be spending honing your attack prowess, etc.

Eh, I see your argument, but I think it feels a little akward or forced for these items. Also, since not all the items are weapons (a horn and a ring are mentioned), then if spell-casters don't also suffer hits in spellcasting, I'm not sure it holds water (and is a bigger disadvantage to the fighter class.)

One interesting note - over on the WotC boards, one of the original writers of the book mentions that the concept originally was a HP sacrifice only, so the editing process changed this.

One thing I noticed about the preview in the non-legacy description:

+1 scimitar; Cost 2,315 gp. On a successful attack, Desert Wind deals 1 point of fire damage in addition to normal damage.

Now, I'm assuming that the fire damage replaces the un-typed damage a +1 weapon normally has. The item price certainly doesn't reflect it as extra damage over the untyped damage.

This is actually kind of cool, if I'm interpretting this right. I'm wondering, tho, if replacing the untyped damage this way might earn a slight price break, since it's not always going to be as useful. 10%, maybe? So a +1 Attack/+1 fire damage weapon might only cost 1800gp (+ masterwork weapon price.) Thoughts?

 

[Dark Psion]

This one has my attention, I especially like the way it uses Bardic Lore in it's description. The idea of unlocking an item's powers could be applied to many existing items as well; Rings of Elemental Power, Rod of Lordly Might and Mantle of the Celestian.

But I do have three questions,

Is this book just weapons? At over 200 pages there is room for several types of magic items.

Is it just basic magic items? Does it cover Arcane, Divine, Nature and Psionic items?

What happens when that guy with the scroll of Mordenkainen's Disjunction comes along?