D&D 5E Weird Rules Interactions between Order of the Scribe and various spells.

Hussar

Legend
Now here's one that's got me a bit stumped. If an Order of the Scribe wizard drops a Dimension Door through his Manifest Mind, can he teleport a willing creature?

For reference:

Manifest Mind said:
At 6th level, you can conjure forth the mind of your Awakened Spellbook. As a bonus action while the book is on your person, you can cause the mind to manifest as a Tiny spectral object, hovering in an unoccupied space of your choice within 60 feet of you. The spectral mind is intangible and doesn't occupy its space, and it sheds dim light in a 10-foot radius. It looks like a ghostly tome, a cascade of text, or a scholar from the past (your choice).

While manifested, the spectral mind can hear and see, and it has darkvision with a range of 60 feet. The mind can telepathically share with you what it sees and hears (no action required).

Whenever you cast a wizard spell on your turn, you can cast it as if you were in the spectral mind's space, instead of your own, using its senses. You can do so a number of times per day equal to your proficiency bonus, and you regain all expended uses when you finish a long rest.

As a bonus action, you can cause the spectral mind to hover up to 30 feet to an unoccupied space that you or it can see. It can pass through creatures but not objects.

And the text of Dimension Door (with my bold)

You teleport yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You arrive at exactly the spot desired. It can be a place you can see, one you can visualize, or one you can describe by stating distance and direction, such as 200 feet straight downward or upward to the northwest at a 45-degree angle, 300 feet.

You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesn't exceed what you can carry. You can also bring one willing creature of your size or smaller who is carrying gear up to its carrying capacity. The creature must be within 5 feet of you when you cast this spell.

If you would arrive in a place already occupied by an object or a creature, you and any creature traveling with you each take 4d6 force damage, and the spell fails to teleport you.

Now, here's my question. How big is the caster when casting a spell through Manifest Mind? If we use the wizard's size, does that mean that the Manifest Mind is treated as Medium every time it casts a spell (potentially interacting with things like the squeezing rules) or is it Tiny, in which case, Dimension Door doesn't really work through the Manifest Mind?
 

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billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
I'd go with the caster's characteristics since they are the ones doing the casting, they're just casting as if they were in the spectral mind's space and using the spectral mind's senses. No other characteristics of the spell or caster need to be changed.
 

Hussar

Legend
I'd go with the caster's characteristics since they are the ones doing the casting, they're just casting as if they were in the spectral mind's space and using the spectral mind's senses. No other characteristics of the spell or caster need to be changed.

Would you similarly impose squeezing if the Mind was in a small space and the spell required an attack roll?
 


Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Now, here's my question. How big is the caster when casting a spell through Manifest Mind? If we use the wizard's size, does that mean that the Manifest Mind is treated as Medium every time it casts a spell (potentially interacting with things like the squeezing rules) or is it Tiny, in which case, Dimension Door doesn't really work through the Manifest Mind?
The caster is casting it through the manifest mind. The mind itself isn't casting it, so I don't see that the size of the mind needs to change at all.

What gets me with that ability is this.

"While manifested, the spectral mind can hear and see, and it has darkvision with a range of 60 feet. The mind can telepathically share with you what it sees and hears (no action required)."

So the mind is seeing things, not you. Then it shares telepathically, which is words. So essentially it's describing the situation to the caster who can then cast there. Except without being able to see, many spells wouldn't be castable through the mind. What we ended up doing is just saying specific beats general and allowing the caster to cast spells that need sight anyway.
 

NotAYakk

Legend
Would you similarly impose squeezing if the Mind was in a small space and the spell required an attack roll?
Does the Wizard have to squeeze in order to cast from the spectral Mind's space?

The wizard isn't moving into that space, and isn't actually there. So no, the wizard isn't squeezing when casting through the spectral mind where the mind is in a space too small for the wizard to fit.

The wizard remains medium. It casts from the spectral mind's space, but it isn't in the spectral mind's space. There is no "teleport to spectral mind's space, resolve spell, teleport back".

Only the the properties of casting (origin, etc) that care about the space you are in apply. Your body (the wizard's body) remains where it is.
 

Stormonu

Legend
Bigger question, if cast through Mind's space, does the book have to treat the owning wizard as "an additional person" or can it teleport itself, the wizard and someone else? And, I suppose the reverse - is the book considered equipment, or an additional creature if cast by wizard?
 

NotAYakk

Legend
The book is not casting the spell.
The book is not a creature.
The book does not occupy a space.

The wizard is casting the spell.
The wizard is casting the spell as if it was in the Tiny Book's space.

The caster of the spell remains the wizard. But any questions about "within 5'" or the origin of attacks or the like use the tiny book's space as instead of the wizard's space.
 

Hussar

Legend
The five foot distance isn’t the issue. The issue is that the caster can only take a willing target that is its size or smaller.

Note, I assumed the telepathic senses sharing was exactly that - you “see” through the Mind’s eyes. It’s not telling you what it sees.

Otherwise manifest mind would be pretty useless.
 

I would read the spectral mind ability as applying to the normal distance and targeting of a spell, and the "other creature has to be within 5 feet of you" prerequisite in the main text of the spell as an additional more specific requirement for the specific spell. I don't think it's necessarily a huge problem here, but I do think anywhere you have additional range requirements in the main text of the spell you are likely to get into the realm of edge case spells where the ability doesn't really work as intended or requires additional rulings, and it's plenty powerful without opening that whole can of worms.
 

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