Weponless Monk PrC

[Twowolves]

Hello all.

I am in the process of tweaking a homemade monk prestige class, and I needed some feedback on a balance issue. Essentially, this class promotes the idea of the monk perfecting his body, shaping it into the perfect weapon. So much so the class denys the use of ALL weapons. I have tossed in a few special abilities, but I am a bit concerned that by disallowing the use of any kind of weapon other than unarmed attacks, the monk will not be an effective combatant. By effective combatant, I mean that without magic weapon enhancements that would be available to standard monks, he just won't be able to hold his own weight.

My question, then, is this: Will giving the PrC a Fighter's BAB progression offset the disadvantage of the ban on weapon use? Should the PrC get a Fighter BAB and d10 HD? Comments and suggestions are more than welcome!

Twowolves

 

[Crothian]

Is this 3.0 or 3.5? That makes a difference as in both monks can have a hard type with certain DRs but which DRs they have trouble with depends on the version.

What abilities and what requirements do you have for the class already? Part of the blance of prestige classes does come from requirements and abilities gained. There have been some great books written for monks in d20 like Beyond Monks and Quint Monk. If you happen to have access to either of them, I highly recomend them. However, they are obviously not a necessity.

 

[Twowolves]

Ok, I guess I should have been more forthcoming with background info. Basically, I made a version of the Scarred Lands monk prestige class "Exemplar" long before the official version appeared in their Player's Guide to Paladins and Monks. I was underwhelmed with what S&S did with the idea, and would rather just refine my original idea and use it instead. It's a 3.5 class that continues the AC, Fast Movement, Flurry of Blows, Stunning Fist and Unarmed Damage progression of the monk base class, plus the following abilities:

Level BAB* Fort Ref Will Special

1 +1 +2 +2 +2 Meditate (2xheal rate),Ironbone, Ki Strike:Magic
2 +2 +3 +3 +3 Damage Reduction: 1/-, Bonus Feat
3 +3 +3 +3 +3 Meditate (catatonic state), Ironskin
4 +4 +4 +4 +4 Bonus Feat, Ki Critical
5 +5 +4 +4 +4 Meditate (Long Breath), Improved Evasion, Ki Strike:Lawful
6 +6 +5 +5 +5 Bonus Feat
7 +7 +5 +5 +5 Meditate (Sustenance), Damage Reduction 2/-
8 +8 +6 +6 +6 Bonus Feat
9 +9 +6 +6 +6 Ki Strike: Adamantine
10 +10 +7 +7 +7 Bonus Feat, Perfection

Ironbone grants +1 Natural AC bonus and +1 to unarmed damage. Ironskin grants an additional +1 Natural AC and +1 Fortitude saves. The bonus feats come from a list of combat maneuvers and "body enhancement" feats. "Perfection" is basically the Axiomatic template. I continued the Ki Strike progression, so I'm not worried about him being able to affect opponents, I was more concerned with the lack of enhancement bonuses to hit and damage, or other magic weapon benefits (like Flaming, Bane, etc.).

There, that's what I have thus far. The question is: Is giving up the benefits from magic weapons offset by giving the PrC a Fighter's BAB and/or Hit Dice?

 

[Geoff Watson]

Very few monks use weapons anyway, especially if you allow magic items like Bracers of Striking or Amulets of Mighty Fists.

The main disadvantage is 3.5 DR, but unarmed monks do enough damage to outweigh the advantage of using the right weapon (assuming the monk has it available).

Another disadvantage is missile weapons, but monks suck at that in any case (sling or shuriken), so it's not much of a loss.

To sum up, I don't see monks giving up weapon use as a serious disadvantage. It's like a greatsword-fighter PrC not being allowed to use clubs.

I might give them one bonus feat, or a minor special ability, if they aren't allowed to use weapons, but not more than that.

Anyway, what happens if they do use a weapon?

Geoff.

 

[Nifft]

Here's what I'd do: require Ki Strike (Lawful), so they have 10 levels of Monk under their black belts. Now, advance as a regular Monk, plus some hefty bonuses -- a total lack of missile weapons at this level will hurt, as will not having certain special material weapons.

So, my proposal:

- HD: d8
- BAB: full, as Fighter
- Saves: all good

All [Unarmed Monk] levels stack with Monk levels for gaining special abilities, except where the [Unarmed Monk] has a better ability, as noted below:

Level 1 - Diamond Body & Greater Flurry, and his Unarmed Damage increases as though he were one size larger.
Level 2 - Abundant Step 1/day & Slow Fall 60 ft., and AC Bonus increases by +1 immediately (to +3), and again at each even level (for a total of +7 at 10th level).
Level 3 - Diamond Soul at level 3 grants SR 13 + level (not merely 10 + level).
Level 4 - Slow fall 70 ft.
Level 5 - Quivering Palm, and Abundant Step 2/day
Level 6 - Ki strike (adamantine), slow fall 80 ft.
Level 7 - Timeless Body, Tongue of Sun and Moon
Level 8 - Slow Fall 90 ft., and Abundant Step 3/day
Level 9 - Empty Body
Level 10 - Perfect self, slow fall any distance, and Abundant Step 4/day


Notes: Base saves are all +14, base damage is 4d8 (for a Medium Monk, 2d10 for a Small Monk), BAB is +17, full attack with flurry is +17/+17/+17/+12/+7/+2 (which is really quite a lot of attacks).

Just a first brush at the concept.

-- N

 

[Nifft]

Very few monks use weapons anyway

Consider the simple Quarterstaff. It is a two-handed Monk weapon. This means that a Monk with Power Attack can do nearly as much damage as a Greatsword guy, but strike as often as a two-weapon fighting guy.

Weapons work great for Monks.

(In the party that I DM, the Monk has a +2 Quarterstaff.)

-- N

 

[Geoff Watson]

Consider the simple Quarterstaff. It is a two-handed Monk weapon. This means that a Monk with Power Attack can do nearly as much damage as a Greatsword guy, but strike as often as a two-weapon fighting guy.

Weapons work great for Monks.

(In the party that I DM, the Monk has a +2 Quarterstaff.)

-- N

Only at low levels.

The base 1d6 damage will make up for the extra attacks, and the lower BAB will make Power Attack a losing proposition most of the time. Also, the rules for flurry of blows make it unclear as to whether you'd get the better PA bonus, since you only get strength bonuses as a one-handed weapon.

Geoff.

 

[Nifft]

Also, the rules for flurry of blows make it unclear as to whether you'd get the better PA bonus, since you only get strength bonuses as a one-handed weapon.

The rules say that the monk gets Str bonus to damage (not 1/2 Str or 1 1/2 Str), even if the weapon is light or two-handed. No mention of otherwise treating the weapon as one-handed.

I'm pretty sure that two-handed 2-for-1 power attack with a Quarterstaff during a Flurry is legal.

And if it is legal, it's a big deal... my Ogre-Magi monks quite like Power Attack.

Even if it's not, the loss of missile weapons for a non-frontline type is a somewhat big deal.

-- N

 

[frugal]

Hello all.

I am in the process of tweaking a homemade monk prestige class, and I needed some feedback on a balance issue. Essentially, this class promotes the idea of the monk perfecting his body, shaping it into the perfect weapon. So much so the class denys the use of ALL weapons. I have tossed in a few special abilities, but I am a bit concerned that by disallowing the use of any kind of weapon other than unarmed attacks, the monk will not be an effective combatant. By effective combatant, I mean that without magic weapon enhancements that would be available to standard monks, he just won't be able to hold his own weight.

Having played a monk character I must say that I never found any weapons that were better than unarmed.

Advantages to Unarmed:

• Always armed
• Can never be disarmed
• At higher levels getting higher damage for free
• Ability to overcome damage resistance

Disadvantages to Unarmed:

• Can not have +1 through +5 hit bonuses
• Can not have extra damage weapon modifiers

Monks concentrate on WIS and DEX so the bonus damage from STR will not apply to either case.

So a 20th level Monk will be doing: 2d10 damage with a Magic/Lawful/Adamantine weapon (avg 11pts).
A 20th level fighter with a longsword will be 1d8 avg 4.5pts.

Now at 20th level I would expect some powerups, so:

Monk: +5 amulet of mighty fists, ring of shock: 2d10+1d8+5 = 20.5 avg
Fighter: +5 flaming burst longsword: 1d8+1d6+5 = 13.5 avg

Now admitidly there are a lot of other differences: fighters get higher strength and a higher BAB: +20 as opposed to +15 for the monk, but the monk has a higher to hit bonus on average: +15/+15/+15/+10/+5 as oppossed to +20/+15/+10/+5

 

[Nifft]

Monks concentrate on WIS and DEX so the bonus damage from STR will not apply to either case.

So a 20th level Monk will be doing: 2d10 damage with a Magic/Lawful/Adamantine weapon (avg 11pts).
A 20th level fighter with a longsword will be 1d8 avg 4.5pts.

Woah there. Not all Monks are Finesse fighters, and the typical Fighter20 will have Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization in his chosen weapon. Let's also assume he's not an idiot, and puts some points in Strength, where tanks should put some points. Furthermore, since he's not an idiot, he won't have a +5 Flaming Burst Longsword, he'll have a Ring of Shielding and a +2 Holy Bane (Evil Outsiders) Cold Iron Greatsword.

Now, since one of the key points of using weapons is that you can use more than one, the other great advantage is he'll probably have more than one weapon! I'd expect him to also have a +1 Holy Bane (Undead) Silver Greatsword and a +2 Bane (Construct) Adamantine Greatsword.

+5 Heavy Fortification Armor = 100,000 gp (AC total at least +9 for a Chain Shirt, but probably +14 for Full Plate)

Ring of Force Shield = 8,500 gp (+4 shield bonus)

+5 Weapon = 50,000 gp (+2,000 cold iron price)
+4 Weapon = 32,000 gp (+low silver price)
+3 Weapon = 18,000 gp (+5,000 adamantine price)

+6 Belt of Strength = 16,000 gp

= 224,500 gp


as opposed to:
Bracers of Armor +8 = 64,000 gp (total AC bonus +8)
+5 Amulet = 150,000 gp
+6 Gloves of Dex = 16,000 gp
+6 Periapt of Wisdom = 16,000 gp
= 246,000 gp


Now look at their damage output, remembering the Feats:

Monk BAB +15, Weapon Focus (Unarmed) +1, Amulet +5, Gloves +3 = Attack +23 before ability bonuses
Armor +8, Dex +3, Wis +3 (AC +14 before ability bonuses)
Damage: 2d10, +5 Amulet (16 base damage), crits on a 19 (assuming Monk takes Improved Critical)

Fighter BAB +20, Greater Weapon Focus (Greatsword) +2, Weapon +2, Belt +3 = Attack +27 (+29 vs. Evil Outsiders)
Armor +14, Shield +4 (+18 before ability bonuses)
Damage: 2d6 +2, +4 Belt*, +4 Feat = Damage 17, +7 vs. Evil, +9 vs. Evil Outsiders (total 33), crits on a 17 (Fighter WILL take Improved Critical)

(*Belt note: a +3 Str bonus could grant +4 damage or +5 damage, depending on the base Strength, for a two-handed weapon. So I'm being generous to the Monk here.)

You could maximize your Fighter's AC instead by taking a +5 armor / +5 shield combo, but I chose IMMUNITY TO CRITICALS AND SNEAK ATTACKS instead. Yep, it's nice to have flexible options. This particular Fighter has some left over GP -- perhaps he's gonna buy himself a nice Amulet of Constitution +6 (for an extra +60 hp), or a nice ranged weapon. He could also be tricked out to do more general damage -- I just picked stuff that he's probably going to be fighting a lot at 20th level. A nice Bane(Dragons) Mighty Composite Longbow could come in handy, too.

And that's just a Fighter, whom everyone agrees is weak at 20th level.

-- N