What 3.5 feats would you use to duplicate 4E's monster roles?

[Voadam]

Do I really need to point out how the bolded part is wrong?

Go for it.

Brutes are supposed to be strong on their fortitude defense and have a bunch of hp while weak on AC, mobility, reflex, will, and accuracy. Improved toughness gives them +1/HD which can get to be significant, particularly for the more bestial opponents with lots of animal/magical beast HD for their CR. For low level encounters toughness can make a significant difference. If you want to make your warrior 1 orcs into brute type combatants then toughness is not a bad feat choice.

HP and fortitude save boosting feats are appropriate to get part of the brute feel.

I'd be interested in what you feel are better feats in 3.5 for getting the tough but relatively vulnerable part of the brute feel?

The ones you listed before are only attack feats, and I'm not familiar with all of them and their prereqs. Where is pounce a feat for example?

 

[Noumenon]

Toughness is for [strike]brutes[/strike] chumps.

I realize that Toughness is not a good feat, but it definitely belongs on the "brute feat list." Imagine toughness gave +50 hit points. Would you give it to every monster? No, you're not trying to optimize, you're trying to flavorize. You give it to the big bruiser ogre and the big soft black pudding, because it feels right for them to soak up a ton of damage. This is the "soft target" idea from Dave Noonan's Monster Niches article, which is a whole different way to look at monster roles. Maybe I should produce feat lists for "mobster," "nutcracker", and "spoiler" instead of lurker and soldier.

(I use Toughness = 2 hp + 1 hp/hit die, because it helps against Fireball and I like how things have more hit points in 4E.)

Now, feats such as Power Attack, Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, and Combat Brute would work better. If they have good natural weapons, Multiattack. Pounce wouldn't hurt either.

Combat Brute is great for a brute, actually. It gives the brute a great use for all those hit points, since he needs time to set things up in an earlier round. Therefore it creates tension for the players -- can we kill him before he gets his move off?

With Shock Trooper, Heedless Charge is about buffing your survivability while hitting for high damage, and the bull rush maneuvers are about positioning. I think that might be a skirmisher feat, since Brutes just sit there and get wailed on.

Elites are tougher and stronger than normal monsters, so things like improved toughness, weapon focus, the +2 to a save feats, are all appropriate, and they should generally have more HD and more feats to go with them.

I really like the idea of reserving the +2 to a save feats for elites, to give them all-around toughness most monsters don't have. Weapon Focus too. Quicken SLA is also a great choice for Solos -- Multiattack makes sense for the same reason.

Brutes are "tough" in HP, but do they deserve Great Fortitude? It looks like the ones in the 4E MM have it. I'm thinking I'm going to assign Lightning Reflexes to Skirmishers. Reflex save spells do two things: they stop your movement like Spike Stones and Grease, or they punish bunched monsters with area effects. Skirmishers move a lot and get in the middle of things, so they need Lightning Reflexes. Lurkers move, but they can hide from the area spells and wait till the grease goes away. I still don't know who gets Iron Will.

Lurkers do more damage and are more fragile and dependent upon surprise. They are big ambush hitters. Feats designed to enhance or boost stealth (skill focus) and sneak attack styles (Improved sneak attack from Traps and Treachery) would be appropriate.

Skirmishers are light infantry, they are mobile and do light hit and run attacks well but they stay in the fight more than lurkers. They are easier to squish than soldiers but can get around control issues much better than soldiers. Feats like the spring attack chain would be appropriate.

I'm feeling the same confusion between "which one of skirmishers or lurkers moves around and gets sneak attack" that I was having upthread. I feel that Spring Attack and Flyby Attack are really well suited to lurkers, who should also have attacks that you only need to hit once for them to hurt (like medusas, or Pounce). Skirmishers can have the consistent sneak attacking and skill focus (Tumble).

Leaders boost others in various ways, usually something like area metamagics will be appropriate.

I don't use metamagics much, would it be interesting to divide up the metamagic feats between roles? Silent Spell is definitely a lurker thing. Still Spell would be for whichever role is most likely to get mixed up in melee and grappled -- leaders I guess. Heighten Spell for controllers, Maximize for elites?

 

[Dandu]

Go for it.

Brutes are supposed to be strong on their fortitude defense and have a bunch of hp while weak on AC, mobility, reflex, will, and accuracy. Improved toughness gives them +1/HD which can get to be significant, particularly for the more bestial opponents with lots of animal/magical beast HD for their CR.

At level 20, where this feat gives its maximum benefit, you only get 20 extra HP. Improved Toughness is best on casters or anyone else with tiny, D4 hit dice, and even then, casters have better option (Faerie Mysteries Initiate allows you to use Int instead of Con Mod for calculating HP for wizards, for example.)

For low level encounters toughness can make a significant difference. If you want to make your warrior 1 orcs into brute type combatants then toughness is not a bad feat choice.

At any other level, its usefulness drops off quickly.

HP and fortitude save boosting feats are appropriate to get part of the brute feel.

Good HP and fortitude save boosting feats are more appropriate.

I'd be interested in what you feel are better feats in 3.5 for getting the tough but relatively vulnerable part of the brute feel?

Steadfast Determination: Prerequisite Endurance. Allows you to use Con mod instead of Wis mod for will saves. Also prevents you from failing a fort save on a natural one.

The ones you listed before are only attack feats, and I'm not familiar with all of them and their prereqs.

Leap Attack requires 5 ranks in jump, and allows you to double the damage on a charge if wielding a two handed weapon. (The text says triple, but I'm fairly sure it was errata'd.)
Shock Trooper requires Improved Bull Rush, and allows you to assign your Power Attack penalties from a charge to your AC, among other things.
Combat Brute requires Improved Sunder, and allows you to take a penalty of -5 or more on an attack you make after charging and deal x3 damage if you wield a 2 handed weapon, among other things.
There's more you can add on to this, such as Battle Jump and Headlong Rush along with items such as a Valorous weapon (an enchantment that doubles the damage on a charge), and other ways of adding damage (Rhino's Hide armor from the PHB gives +2d6 on a charge)

Note: If you have two x2 charging damage feats (or items, or etc), the actual damage multiplier increases to x3, not x4. It just goes up a step. Likewise, if you had three x2 feats, it goes up to x4. (I think)

I postulate that this is a better use of feats.

Where is pounce a feat for example?

Pounce can be acquired through two Incarnum feats, Open Least Chakara and Sphinx Claws. Alternatively, have the Brute take one level in the Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian from Complete Champion for pounce as a class feature, or apply the +1 LA Feral template.

With Shock Trooper, Heedless Charge is about buffing your survivability while hitting for high damage, and the bull rush maneuvers are about positioning. I think that might be a skirmisher feat, since Brutes just sit there and get wailed on.

Skirmishers would be highly mobile, which to me evokes an image of spring attacking. Charging melee monsters that deal large damage on charges but don't have the mobility are not strikers to me.

I realize that Toughness is not a good feat, but it definitely belongs on the "brute feat list." Imagine toughness gave +50 hit points. Would you give it to every monster? No, you're not trying to optimize, you're trying to flavorize.

So why not use a feat that is both flavorful and good?

Here's the issue with flavoring things without paying attention to the mechanics: you can spice up a monster all you want and make it seem like the deadliest thing on Oerth, but if it dies in one round after combat starts, then what's the point of your flavor? You have to have mechanics to back it up.

Take for example the CR 20 Tarresque. Flavored as this devastating monster... but you're effectively invulnerable to it if you can fly. Overland Flight is a spell that wizards get at level 9. It can be killed by a level 13 party that tries really hard, or by one level 20 caster that tries moderately hard.

What we have here is an example of the fluff being rather incongruitous with the crunch, and it turns the Tarresque from this massive threat to a joke.

Incidentally, I believe the Tarresque chose Toughness for all of its feats?

 

[Celebrim]

(Faerie Mysteries Initiate allows you to use Int instead of Con Mod for calculating HP for wizards, for example.)

LOL. So, we are going to start bringing notably broken and ill thought out feats from Dragon into the discussion of what is balanced and appropriate?

Shock Trooper requires Improved Bull Rush, and allows you to assign your Power Attack penalties from a charge to your AC, among other things.

And shock trooper is the key ingredient of virtually every busted melee combat build in the game because of it. I mean, why stop there, there are some Shock Trooper builds that deal 1000+ damage. I'm sure that his PC's will love that.

Yes, yes, it is possible to create Pun-Pun, but I'm afraid that you are really missing the point here. This thread is not about optimizing NPC's to be kick butt using whatever feats and abilities we can tenuously justify because they were published somewhere so they must be ok.

I postulate that this is a better use of feats.

For some very narrow definitions of 'better', I suppose so.

 

[Noumenon]

If the wizard is capable of doing 50 damage with his fireballs on a regular basis,

Fireballs will do 50 damage any time they have 2 or 3 targets. Whereas a normal level 7 barbarian (18 strength, raging 2-handed +2 greataxe) is 1d12+11, or 34 on a full attack. I think Fireball should be doing total damage in that general range, unless you get like six targets for it.

Headlong Rush

Oh my god, is that brutish. I love it. Don't see why it has to be so narrow for just orcs. Celebrim is right, I don't care a whit that it lets the guy do double damage, what I like is how well it fits into a brutish view of things. I play almost 100% out of the core books, but some of these almost "power-like" feats are tempting me.

Battle Jump

That is so lurker.

 

[Dandu]

LOL. So, we are going to start bringing notably broken and ill thought out feats from Dragon into the discussion of what is balanced and appropriate?

More balanced than Quicken Spell.

And shock trooper is the key ingredient of virtually every busted melee combat build in the game because of it.

No, it isn't. I have seen more broken melee builds than you, and only the ones that focus on charging use Shock Trooper.*

You speak out of ignorance.

Yes, yes, it is possible to create Pun-Pun, but I'm afraid that you are really missing the point here. This thread is not about optimizing NPC's to be kick butt using whatever feats and abilities we can tenuously justify because they were published somewhere so they must be ok.

This thread is about building monsters to best fit certain types. Brutes, for example, deal lots of damage and are tough. Logically, one should build brutes that... deal lots of damage and are tough. You mention Pun Pun, but I never said to do anything of the sort. I am just listing solid, powerful, and flavorful feats that will create a brute on paper as well as in practice.

* Greater Mighty Whallop based unarmed builds, the 1d2 Crusader, Hulking Hurler builds, Cancer Mage builds, Crit based builds involving Disciple of Dispater plus other crit range expanders and Weapon Aptitude, The Lord of the Dance, Shadow Multipouncers, Legacy Champion Hellfire Glaivelocks, Jack B. Quick, Chuck E. Cheese, Nanomachines, spelunking (don't ask), The Shuriken Storm, the 1,067,212 attacks in a single action build...

I don't think there's enough space in this post to list them all. You can find most of the above builds and more here.

 

[blargney the second]

Fireballs will do 50 damage any time they have 2 or 3 targets. Whereas a normal level 7 barbarian (18 strength, raging 2-handed +2 greataxe) is 1d12+11, or 34 on a full attack. I think Fireball should be doing total damage in that general range, unless you get like six targets for it.

When you add in Power Attack and Cleave, you'll be looking at a more realistic damage total for the barbarian. If he's using a reach weapon with Combat Reflexes, it's even better.

Then change his rage to Whirling Frenzy.
-blarg

ps - I think this is a fantastic thread idea. I'm gonna start coming up with some feat packages for various concepts.

 

[Runestar]

Thirdly, the problem I think you'll run into that is the most serious is that there is major overlap between the roles.

I am thinking the feat trees may help to define a particular role more, especially if a certain monster is capable of fulfilling more than one role.

I like the idea, but I would like to affirm if we are on the same page with an example.

Say I have a horned devil npc. Depending how I want it to fight, I could replace its feats with the following...

Controller - combat reflexes, robilar's gambit, combat expertise, improved trip, mage slayer, either ability focus: stun, deft opportunist, improved disarm or pierce magical protection depending on personal preference.

The goal here is to position the horned devil so the party provokes many AoOs, and it is in a position to take advantage of this by tripping the fighters, disarming them of their weapons, stunning the wizards and maybe even piercing through their defenses. Its high dex lets it make up to 8 AoOs each round, while gambit/mage slayer help generate AoOs. Its AC is generally high enough to withstand the AC penalty from gambit (not forgetting the +4 deflection bonus from dispel good/chaos, and you can always use deft opportunist to offset expertise).

Skirmisher - dodge, mobility, spring attack, bounding assault, either combat expertise + whirlwind or Quicken SLA: fireball/lightning bolt + ???.

One issue here is the horned devil's poor land speed, so you may want to improve that with gear. The idea is that it can move, make 2 attacks (each of which can stun), then move away to discourage full attacks. Quickened fireball is for additional damage and to take advantage of the action economy. Still a little undivided on whirlwind, but it can be useful if the devil can threaten 3 PCs (and hopefully, the stun helps protect it from a retributive full attack next round). With 3 more HD, it qualifies for rapid blitz, netting it a 3rd attack when it spring-attacks.

Soldier: use original feats, but either replace improved sunder (which you cannot use with a chain) or its spiked chain with some other weapon. This paves the way for a weapon style feat as well. For example, if you have it wield a greatclub, it can pick up the 3-mountains style feats, meaning that the horned devil can nauseate the foe in addition to forcing them to save twice vs stunning (so higher chance of disabling him overall).

Comments? Of course, this is highly theoretical, and I have not actually tried them out.

 

[blargney the second]

The highly dextrous offense package:
Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade (prereqs: 1 level of swordsage or feats Martial Study & Martial Stance)

The dexterity-based defense package:
You can add uncanny dodge and evasion by taking the feats Shape Soulmeld (Impulse Boots) and Open Least Chakra.

 

[Runestar]

Yes, yes, it is possible to create Pun-Pun, but I'm afraid that you are really missing the point here. This thread is not about optimizing NPC's to be kick butt using whatever feats and abilities we can tenuously justify because they were published somewhere so they must be ok.

Except that optimizing one aspect of a monster seems like the best way of highlighting that specific role best. How else are you going to get your PCs' attention? I feel the impact of the feats has to be significant enough to actually make a difference in combat. You want your monster to be an effective brute? It has to excel at being a brute, and be sufficiently different enough from the same monster with a soldier-oriented feat selection, and not just being a brute in name only.

For example, a troll has 23con and 8 wis. Steadfast determination seems like a no-brainer, improving its will save by a whooping +7. Tack on 1 lv of barb for rage + pounce and you have a choice brute (low AC, but lots of hp and decent damage from 2 claws+rend). And it won't be instantly knocked out by slow, deep slumber or glitterdust.

That it may end up making the monster much stronger than its cr otherwise suggests is another issue. Truth be told, with all the splatbooks available, I think that the standard MM monsters are actually weak for their cr. So after optimizing their feat/eq choices, you may discover that they are now just right for their cr relative to the power level of your PCs.

The 3 extra hp from toughness certainly won't be making an impact. Most of the time, I doubt they will even notice it is there.

Yes, some feats are so powerful they border on being their own class features, but you cannot deny that they do add a lot of flavour and the desired mechanical benefits to said monster.

I am liking this thread more and more (also partly because I quite enjoy tinkering with monsters myself). Lets see how we can modify existing monsters. Any suggestions to get the ball rolling?