What About Dragons? (NOT the highest-level monster?)

[helium3]

I'm sure that Dragons will get their time in the spotlight. After all, when looking at things alphabetically, De comes before Dr.

 

[Klaus]

Blech.



Seriously, I like them as being more akin to demon lords: Something less than gods, something that a very high-level party could potentially challenge. It's what they were in 1E, and I'd like to go back. There are already draconic gods; no need to take the two greatest dragons out of the realm of actual playability and add them to the list.

(But then, I was against the promotion of Vecna to a true god, too. I don't see why really cool and powerful monsters/villains can't stay that way.)

All I'm saying is, I want Tiamat to be able to kick the arse of the Midgard Serpent. She (and Bahamut) should be at the TOP of the dragon hierarchy, bar none (save for Io, but I usually have Io be the actual multiverse).

So if you get to 30th level (or whatever), Aunt T is the dragon you look for to pick a fight.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

Erm...sorry if I offended.

You are merely one of a legion of people driving the once-cute concept of "love for X" meaning "attention paid to X" into the ground.

Don't feel too bad.

 

[wedgeski]

I guess dragons aren't as "sexy" as demons are, in today's pop culture.

I initially thought 'What the...?' when I read this but I guess you're referring to Buffy and its ilk? There might well be some of that behind Wizards' obvious goal of giving fiends a stronger presence in the Core. At the end of the day though, I don't think we have to worry about whether these guys understand the importance of dragons to the game. They're all basically fanboys who made good, after all.

 

[TwinBahamut]

All I'm saying is, I want Tiamat to be able to kick the arse of the Midgard Serpent. She (and Bahamut) should be at the TOP of the dragon hierarchy, bar none (save for Io, but I usually have Io be the actual multiverse).

So if you get to 30th level (or whatever), Aunt T is the dragon you look for to pick a fight.

Ummm... The Midgard Serpent is the thing that, during Ragnarok, is supposed to poison the sky so badly that it kills even Thor... You want Tiamat to be even stronger and still be kilable by PCs? I think you want high-level characters to be buffed up quite a bit.

They are probably just saving all the Dragon talk until closer to release, just because it would be good hype then. Or maybe it is just that DR comes after DE, and they already said that they are going through monsters alphabetically in Monster Manual design... Either way, Dragon info should come sooner or later.

I am hoping that the chromatic/metallic split is gone, and dragons get more cool breath attacks in exchange for losing spells entirely. Hoping that color is divided from alignment is just a subset of my general desire for alignment to go away.

 

[RavinRay]

All I'm saying is, I want Tiamat to be able to kick the arse of the Midgard Serpent. She (and Bahamut) should be at the TOP of the dragon hierarchy, bar none (save for Io, but I usually have Io be the actual multiverse).

Arrgh! Sardior of the gem dragons gets no respect!

 

[CleverNickName]

I initially thought 'What the...?' when I read this but I guess you're referring to Buffy and its ilk? There might well be some of that behind Wizards' obvious goal of giving fiends a stronger presence in the Core.

By "sexy," I mean "trendy" or "popular." The idea of heroic demons is en vogue right now, and I believe that Buffy had a lot to do with that. I'm not complaining about it, I think it is a good thing. It adds depth and flavor...it might not be suitable for everyone's campaign, but that doesn't make it a bad idea. Not everyone likes cheese, either, but it will always have a place in my fridge.

I just don't want the game to be more about demons than it is about dragons. So far, practically every part of the game we have heard about, from playable races to classes to monsters to cosmology, has been All About The Demons. If WotC doesn't put at least this much emphasis on dragons in 4E, I will be disappointed.

You are merely one of a legion of people driving the once-cute concept of "love for X" meaning "attention paid to X" into the ground.

Don't feel too bad.

I has a legion!

Sorry, couldn't resist. I'll try to keep the cliche to a minimum in this thread, I promise. Now getting back on track, what speculations do you have about the 4E dragons? Anything in particular you would like to see added? changed? removed?

Or maybe it is just that DR comes after DE, and they already said that they are going through monsters alphabetically in Monster Manual design... Either way, Dragon info should come sooner or later.

I dunno...Hobgoblin definitely comes after DE and DR, and we've been told more about them than we have heard about dragons. Seriously, though, I am sure you are right...there is absolutely zero chance that dragons will be omitted from the 4E game, so more information will be coming shortly. I'm just impatient.

I am hoping that the chromatic/metallic split is gone, and dragons get more cool breath attacks in exchange for losing spells entirely. Hoping that color is divided from alignment is just a subset of my general desire for alignment to go away.

The biggest problem that I see with removing spells from dragons, is a lack of a ranged attack (apart from its breath weapon, of course.) There are many ways to get around this...give them manticore spikes, or allow them to throw boulders, or give them the ability to "spit" a small quantity of their breath weapon. I'd like to see stuff like this tied to the dragon's racial ability trees, instead of the same-old Wingover, Hover, and Multiattack tricks.

 

[MisterWhodat]

I would like to see dragons as singular beings

 

[D'karr]

I dunno...Hobgoblin definitely comes after DE and DR, and we've been told more about them than we have heard about dragons.

Well, James Wyatt is on the next podcast, and the questions that they asked were all about monsters. So there is a good possibility that we'll get more info on Dragons out of that. And they did say that he talked a lot. So it is possible we might get a heck of a lot more. Then again he might have spent all that time talking about demons.

Patience is a virtue.

 

[CleverNickName]

Dragons got a brief, and indirect mention in Schubert's "Slaad & what the highest level monster in the MM isn't" post. In that thread, it was mentioned that the elder red (dragon) was not the highest-level monster in the MM , but that it was "very close." The comments are full of some really good speculation about what the Big Bad will be, but we probably won't know anything solid until the MM is released.

Me? I'm hoping for Tiamat.