What about when Ruining your Foes' Fun is your Fun?

[IceFractal]

Looking at the 4E previews, it seems that one of the constantly touted points is that Fun will be protected at all costs. Save-or-die? Not fun, out. Being out of the fight? Unfun, gone. Now that's one thing when we're talking about the PCs "fun" being protected against the opponents, but does it go both ways? And if so, what of the debuffer/controller characters?


For instance, let's take a look at the new 3.5 Hold Person. From the victim's perspective, it's much better - no more being taken out of the fight in one round. From the caster's perspective, though, it's frankly lame. I wouldn't cast it unless I knew the target had a truly mediocre Will save, and I was out of better spells.

Now that's ok ... for a single 2nd level spell. Don't like it? Then pick one of the many alternatives. But if this applies to everything in 4E, it makes the entire Enchantment school a steaming pile of uselessness. What if Dominate Person had a save every round? Statistically, you couldn't hold control beyond two minutes, no matter how strong you were.


Now secondly, let's take battlefield control. While it has been mentioned that the Wizard is a "controller", I'm starting to be afraid that "controller" is a euphemism like "leader", and actually means something stupid like "area damage effects", or control-lite like Wall of Fire.

Because at it's heart, battlefield control is about ruining the enemy's fun. You wanted to go attack the Cleric? Too bad, now there's a wall in the way. You wanted to charge in? Well you can't, because there's tentacles blocking you. You just wanted to do something useful? Sorry about the fog and darkness and ice then, I guess you'll have to blunder around like a dolt.

And that's the point, that's what a real "controller" Wizard does. He ruins the enemies' fun, for the benefit of the party. And that's how the controller has fun.


I guess what I'm saying is that fun is relative. And also, that being paralyzed for a couple rounds or being blocked from your goal for a while isn't the same as "save or die", and people don't need to be "protected" from it.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't overhaul effects, but keep in mind that the debuffing Wizards are people too - people who want their spells to be more than a trifling nuisance.

 

[Aloïsius]

I guess what I'm saying is that fun is relative. And also, that being paralyzed for a couple rounds or being blocked from your goal for a while isn't the same as "save or die", and people don't need to be "protected" from it.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't overhaul effects, but keep in mind that the debuffing Wizards are people too - people who want their spells to be more than a trifling nuisance.

This is another reason why I don't like the suppression of "save or die" effects. I played a 3.0 party a few weeks ago : Harm was a blast when we used it against the naga sorcerer to avoid a TPK. Without this spell, we would probably have been killed.

 

[jasin]

Very good point, IceFractal.

But I remain hopeful that there's still room for a true controller in 4E, perhaps making it even more fun. Mearls' drider writeup perhaps offers interesting hints.

Consider a system where charm, suggestion and dominate all inflict "mind control points" on enemies". If they exceed a certain threshold, the enemy becomes a friend (charmed), if they exceed a higher threshold, they become a puppet (dominated). Suggestion has a special stipulation where completing the suggestion immediately reduces your mind control points.

Done well, I think this could make playing an enchanter more fun than the current all or nothing system.

 

[hong]

IMO the trick is for the DM to switch from a PvP to a PvE mindset. I haven't quite accomplished this fully myself, to be honest.

 

[TerraDave]

Ice Fractal,

I like the way you think.

I feel re-motivated as a DM.

Of course, I am not sure my players will be so happy.

 

[Stalker0]

I sincerely doubt that effects like dominate will be taken out.

There's a HUGE difference between being dominated and being killed. Dominate your still doing stuff, you can try to roleplay it out, or maybe even have a little bit of fun being the bad guy against your party. Dead is dead, no more character, no more action, just d e d dead.

Further, dominate has a few ways to counter it, magic circle for example. Dead....well the fixing spells are kind of expensive, and bit more out there then you cast some protection magic to block the domination.

 

[Nifft]

Yeah. Dominate better still be in. I've got an evil player who's playing a not-so-evil PC, so every now and again he'll get Dominated and told to attack the party. He has far too much fun doing so, and is more inventive than I would be. Yay trouble!

Cheers, -- N

 

[Cadfan]

My favorite "spell" ever is Shadow Surge... Extended Shadow Surge...

 

[ZappoHisbane]

Very good point, IceFractal.

But I remain hopeful that there's still room for a true controller in 4E, perhaps making it even more fun. Mearls' drider writeup perhaps offers interesting hints.

Note however that the drider presented was for 3rd edition. It has iterative attacks, and also note the '3ed' tag at the bottom of the post.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Further, dominate has a few ways to counter it, magic circle for example. Dead....well the fixing spells are kind of expensive, and bit more out there then you cast some protection magic to block the domination.

Agreed. Additionally, one big problem to the current "ruining fun"-spells is: They're all-or-nothing. Either they totally butcher you, or you emerge relatively unscathed. It diminishes the fun, because it's random.

Damage on the other hand, doesn't suffer from that problem - because it's an ablative resource, you can get behind the struggle, and it feels less "here - now you're toast". If they make save-or-suffer less absolute and throw in a secondary effect, it'll be more fun.

For example a new Dominate:
You take 2d6 nonlethal damage each turn and make a Will save - after two consecutively failed saves, you are dominated. If you succeed at three consecutive saves, the spell ends. If the target would become unconscious from the nonlethal damage, he comes dominated instead.

The controller is happy, because he helps the party through the nonlethal damage - his action has a definite effect, even if his big effect fails. The attacked has "more fun", because he has a chance to avoid the effect actively - he gets a grace period, where he can try to mash the controller, flee to the party cleric/wizard for help, try to commit suicide, or to get some helpful potion.

Cheers, LT.