What about when Ruining your Foes' Fun is your Fun?
- Thread starter IceFractal
- Start date
IceFractal
First Post
Actually, the alternate Drider is one of the things that started me thinking about this, although I know it's 3E and not necessarily a future indicator.
I hope it isn't anyway, because look at that poison - it's beyond weak, it's "one legged goblin commoner" weak. First off, you start by accumulating negative effects at a rate that would embarrass a 1st level spell. Then, after around 2-7 failed saves, you finally get to paralyze them. Or do you? You'd think that after failing 5 saves, the victim has already had their chance and would be paralyzed for a while - but no, they still get a save every round.
As for mind-control accumulating effect, that could work, as long as you get a consistent result once you accumulate enough. For instance, if someone already failed saves against several spells and accumulated enough "ego drain" to be charmed/dominated/whatever, they shouldn't also get periodic saves to escape - they already had their chance.
And I'm not crazy about effects like Dominate generating damage, although non-lethal damage makes sense to a degree. Especially not being tied to damage. To my mind, mental effects are what you pull out when you don't want to fight the monster normally. Massive giant with hundreds of hp? That's when you pull out the Enchantment stuff, and ignore those hp. For that matter, it'd be nice if non-casters had some "bypass hp" options as well, such as immobilizing or hamstringing moves.
I'm not holding my breath on that though, as there are hints that 4E is positioning HP as an "absolute defense", by tying things to the bloodied condition. Hope that's just a rumor, but it would fit with much of what they've said.
I hope it isn't anyway, because look at that poison - it's beyond weak, it's "one legged goblin commoner" weak. First off, you start by accumulating negative effects at a rate that would embarrass a 1st level spell. Then, after around 2-7 failed saves, you finally get to paralyze them. Or do you? You'd think that after failing 5 saves, the victim has already had their chance and would be paralyzed for a while - but no, they still get a save every round.
As for mind-control accumulating effect, that could work, as long as you get a consistent result once you accumulate enough. For instance, if someone already failed saves against several spells and accumulated enough "ego drain" to be charmed/dominated/whatever, they shouldn't also get periodic saves to escape - they already had their chance.
And I'm not crazy about effects like Dominate generating damage, although non-lethal damage makes sense to a degree. Especially not being tied to damage. To my mind, mental effects are what you pull out when you don't want to fight the monster normally. Massive giant with hundreds of hp? That's when you pull out the Enchantment stuff, and ignore those hp. For that matter, it'd be nice if non-casters had some "bypass hp" options as well, such as immobilizing or hamstringing moves.
I'm not holding my breath on that though, as there are hints that 4E is positioning HP as an "absolute defense", by tying things to the bloodied condition. Hope that's just a rumor, but it would fit with much of what they've said.
Joshua Randall
Legend
Right.grimslade said:
There are actually spells like this in 3e now -- I can't recall the names -- that slowly turn you into stone, or paralyze you. From PH2 maybe?
I would bet money that we will see a mechanic similar to that in 4e.
WhatGravitas
Explorer
For the poison - have you read Mike's response to it, here on ENWorld?IceFractal said:
Here is it:
Source: This threadmearls said:
Cheers, LT.
Mustrum_Ridcully
Legend
Which also points out an interesting idea:Lord Tirian said:
Instead of giving monsters standard abilities they always have, give them an ability that fits the adventure you're in.
Instead of all Bodaks having an instant death effect, only the Master Bodak that leads an army/dungeon full of Undeads has this ability, and since this is a part of the adventure, the adventure will also present enough options to warn the PCs before they enter the final combat and allow them to take precautions.
I like this approach, though I guess I have to test it out before making a final judgement on it. (We'll see if I ever get to that
)I don't like most absolutes that much.
Examples:
Save or die. No in between.
Dominate. No in between.
Mind Blank
True Seeing
Fear
I think most game effects should be some form of modifier, or some form of gradual effect. For example, Fireball. A single 3.5 Fireball rarely kills anyone except really weak mooks. So in reality, it is a gradual effect. It has to be done a few times to really work in most cases. Bless, on the other hand, should just be a modifier (as per 3.5).
How this applies to the OP's point, I think that many game effects could be a small modifier to a situation, or a gradual harmful effect. That way, everybody is having fun. The attacker is harming the defender, but the defender is not being immediately made helpless.
The battlefield control guy is either subtracting modifiers from opponents, or he is gradually affecting them (e.g. Entangle does not stop people dead in their tracks unless they are in the effect for multiple rounds. The first few rounds, it just slows them up a bit, a modifier to movement, to hit, AC, etc.).
The enchantment specialist is either subtracting modifiers from opponents, or he is gradually affecting them.
There are some effects for which gradual effects just makes the game more complex. For example, tripping. Sure, there could be a partially prone effect, but that makes the rules a bit much.
So even if WotC puts in a lot more gradual effects, it's likely that some effects will still be all or nothing (hopefully just not save or die).
Examples:
Save or die. No in between.
Dominate. No in between.
Mind Blank
True Seeing
Fear
I think most game effects should be some form of modifier, or some form of gradual effect. For example, Fireball. A single 3.5 Fireball rarely kills anyone except really weak mooks. So in reality, it is a gradual effect. It has to be done a few times to really work in most cases. Bless, on the other hand, should just be a modifier (as per 3.5).
How this applies to the OP's point, I think that many game effects could be a small modifier to a situation, or a gradual harmful effect. That way, everybody is having fun. The attacker is harming the defender, but the defender is not being immediately made helpless.
The battlefield control guy is either subtracting modifiers from opponents, or he is gradually affecting them (e.g. Entangle does not stop people dead in their tracks unless they are in the effect for multiple rounds. The first few rounds, it just slows them up a bit, a modifier to movement, to hit, AC, etc.).
The enchantment specialist is either subtracting modifiers from opponents, or he is gradually affecting them.
There are some effects for which gradual effects just makes the game more complex. For example, tripping. Sure, there could be a partially prone effect, but that makes the rules a bit much.
So even if WotC puts in a lot more gradual effects, it's likely that some effects will still be all or nothing (hopefully just not save or die).
IceFractal
First Post
The one thing about Enchantment spells in particular is that it's fine if they're gradual ... against equal level opponents. But they need to be instant against significantly weaker foes to have any useful non-combat purposes.
For instance, say you want to gain entry to a warehouse that's been placed totally off limits by the town watch. Dominate Person on one of the guards would be a viable method, as long as you can separate him for a moment. But not if it takes several rounds to function - he'd raising the alarm by round two.
Likewise, that Suggestion for the mayor's assistant to shift you to the front of the line to talk to the mayor is a lot less subtle if he spends several rounds clutching his head and struggling to resist the control before it kicks in.
A potential solution would be to base it on spells like Holy Word, to an extent:
Below half your level: One save
Below your level: Initial save, then accumulate control while they try to break free.
Your level and up: Accumulate control before any effect occurs.
Although this could complicate things. Perhaps a simpler solution would be to make the number of "control points" you need based on the target's level, and set it up such that you could obtain enough to control a significantly weaker target immediately in the first round, but equal level targets required more.
For instance, say you want to gain entry to a warehouse that's been placed totally off limits by the town watch. Dominate Person on one of the guards would be a viable method, as long as you can separate him for a moment. But not if it takes several rounds to function - he'd raising the alarm by round two.
Likewise, that Suggestion for the mayor's assistant to shift you to the front of the line to talk to the mayor is a lot less subtle if he spends several rounds clutching his head and struggling to resist the control before it kicks in.
A potential solution would be to base it on spells like Holy Word, to an extent:
Below half your level: One save
Below your level: Initial save, then accumulate control while they try to break free.
Your level and up: Accumulate control before any effect occurs.
Although this could complicate things. Perhaps a simpler solution would be to make the number of "control points" you need based on the target's level, and set it up such that you could obtain enough to control a significantly weaker target immediately in the first round, but equal level targets required more.
