D&D 5E (2024) Changes to the Command spell and its use at the table.

[FrogReaver]

Ok, I get what you are going for, but that just means you made a monster nearly immune. I am considering altering the root of the cause.

Command will just be replaced with Tasha’s laughter or hold person or sleep or etc…

The problem really is many cheap, scalable, easily accessible control spells that can affect most creatures.

 

[Distracted DM]

I've found that generally my players avoid any spell that feels like a total waste when I roll high enough to make the save. Somehow, my players feel that "missing" with an attack somehow feels less disappointing than a save-or-suck spell being successfully saved against, even though it amounts to the same thing. Frankly, I agree with them.

Probably because a saving throw is in the hands of the DM, whereas attacking is in the hands of the player. It's who's rolling the dice. Someone recently pointed out on some thread that 4e had this right, where the caster always made the rolls (wizard rolling INT vs opponent's Will defense).

 

[FrogReaver]

I've found that generally my players avoid any spell that feels like a total waste when I roll high enough to make the save. Somehow, my players feel that "missing" with an attack somehow feels less disappointing than a save-or-suck spell being successfully saved against, even though it amounts to the same thing. Frankly, I agree with them.

Missing with an attack doesn’t expend a resource and you typically get multiple attacks. That’s the basis for why they feel different.

 

[FrogReaver]

I love it. I think it is way more powerful and generally more fun as a player or a DM.

In exchange for the numerous ways it was made better it was nerfed in that you can't make up things for the enemy to do. "Surrender" was a popular one at my table in 2014, and also "daydream" to force someone to break concentration on a spell. Can't do that any more it has to be one of the canned directions. Even with this minor nerf though, still way more powerful than it was.

I've used Spirit Guardians and Approach quite often and flee to impose multiple AOOs.

I would be opposed to nerfing it at all. It is a very powerful spell, Tasha's hideous Laughter was similarly buffed by eliminating those it does not work against and I like where both of them are right now.

Also it is great for multiclassed players. If you multiclassed two casters, especially two full casters you ended up with high level slots that were quite underpowered. With how effective Command and THL are this is no longer really a problem as these spells at say 5th or 6th level are still as good as most 5th or 6th level spells.

The things I don't like in 2024 are weapon masteries, the new Mage Slayer Feat and the new Indomitable. So far, I've kept masteries in the games I DM, but I changed Mage Slayer back to the 2014 version with a +1 stat boost (any stat you want), and I changed Inomitable back to the 2014 version. I've left all the 2024 spells alone so far. I will change them if there is a problem.

That’s fascinating to me. You talk about how strong spells are and nerf martial defenses to said spells. I really don’t get it.

 

[ECMO3]

Command will just be replaced with Tasha’s laughter or hold person or sleep or etc…

The problem really is many cheap, scalable, easily accessible control spells that can affect most creatures.

Hold Person is pretty limited in who it can effect, and 2nd level.

Also what makes command great is the lack of concentration.

 

[ECMO3]

That’s fascinating to me. You talk about how strong spells are and nerf martial defenses to said spells. I really don’t get it.

They are spells, I don't think they should be easily defended. That is the whole point IMO. We do what is most fun at my tables. To be clear the tables I am a player on have not changed back to the old Mage Slayer or Indomitable (although we have talked about doing it with Indomitable), that is only on the tables I DM. You want to beat it easily, use Dispel Magic.
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The other common houserule several of the tables I play on have is that every PC gets the Two Weapon Fighting feat at level 1. We found this is the only way to allow the light weapon property without having a huge stoppage of play almost every fight. The RAW for fighting without that feat are easy to grasp on paper but extremely difficult for new players or even moderately experienced players to execute properly in play (and difficult to put into DND Beyond and VTTs correctly). You would think that would nerf PCs who want to two weapon wield but it doesn't as they can take another option, usually Blind Fighting or Interception, but sometime Defense, Thrown Weapon Fighting or Tactical Mastery from 2014.

Adventure's league is an exception of course. All the AL games I play are hard RAW .... and almost all the players mistakenly add their bonus to light weapon bonus attacks.

 

[FrogReaver]

They are spells, I don't think they should be easily defended. That is the whole point IMO.

This mindset explains a whole whole lot. I'm sure it bleeds over into other aspects of the game as well. Kind of a self fulfilling prophecy IMO.

 

[FrogReaver]

Also what makes command great is the lack of concentration.

I don't disagree, but if only command is axed then it's next man up and the next man up is still pretty dang good, better in some ways, worse in others.

 

[Zardnaar]

Probably because a saving throw is in the hands of the DM, whereas attacking is in the hands of the player. It's who's rolling the dice. Someone recently pointed out on some thread that 4e had this right, where the caster always made the rolls (wizard rolling INT vs opponent's Will defense).

May have been me.

Other reason players should do it vs DM is abilities that modify the roll vs player. Farms out the world to players vs DMs.

Rolling saves en masses for large AoE isnt as often as other abilities in 5E.

 

[Clint_L]

Command is way more useful now, and I like it, but I still allow players to be creative with the commands because usually they choose something funny and entertaining (e.g. "poop"). It's still risky because you've wasted your turn if the opponent saves, but now players are actually using it.