D&D 5E (2024) Fireball Vs Chromatic Orb Late Tier 2 Thoughts.

[TigerDude]

Fireball has save for half. CO optimized in effect has no save it's rare to miss. Its also any element. Fure one of the more common resistances. Lvl 4 spell slot it's 9d6 save for half vs 6d8 90 or 95% accuracy in effect with 10% crit chance. .

Critical hits and paralysis is what you're missing. 6d8 becomes 12d8 vs 9d6 no save.

COs reliable as well, bounce is 30'. FB is very dependent on creatures being clustered. If the DM spreads the out 20-25 feet apart CO is good to go FBs semi useless.

I've seen lvl 6 CO duplicate a chain lightning on 2 paralyzed targets then bounce and hit the other 6 targets. 16d8, 16d8, 5 targets 8d8 no save in effect (95% accuracy + rerolls). Over a large area as well (100'+)

Fireballs not really worth upcasting beyond 4th level. Occasionally you get a 200 hp one but it's few and far between. Light cleric may upcast it along with fiendpact Warlocks otherwise rare scenarios imho.

I don't understand your paralyzed comments. If CO is better against Paralyzed opponents, that's a bit of a different argument, though now FB gets auto-fails on saves. The thread isn't "FB vs CO Late Tier 2 against paralyzed targets thoughts."

Getting back to straight rolls, at L8, I expect to have +5 spellcasting, so +8 to hit, Maybe +10 at L9 with a +1 magic item to improve and Prof at 4. You will miss enemies enough to notice.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Fireballs not needed for that. Our group would just radiance of the dawn stuff like that assuming they knew it was that weak.

If you have that available, good call.
If not. Fireball.

And new zone spells better for that anyway (10/level duration).

Use concentration. Which might be better used for different things.

Of course, if you allow dragging the cleric around for multiple instances per turn, nothing can compete.

I would not allow more than one drag per round. Otherwise it resembles the peasant railgun.
Or the feared kobold conga line.

Having multiple creatures drag the same creature over and over again during the same 6 second period is exploiting the rules. Same goes for many creatures occupying the same space over and over again.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

For large numbers of enemies, I hate tracking individual HP totals for mooks. I have a HP threshold (2-3x party level). Any damage above the threshold kills the target, any damage below bloodies it. Any damage to a bloodied mook kills it, any healing/THP unbloodies it. It makes AE users feel good, and and speeds things along. I can confirm I have now actually seen Burning Hands cast outside of fighting a swarm in 3E.

 

[ECMO3]

If you use monsters with 14 hp or less as minions they can be reliably cleared out with fireball in the first round. Something I sometimes use when designing encounters.

Not very reliably. Against 10 enemies with 14hps and a 20% chance of saving, a 3rd level fireball with no enhancements will clear all 10 of them out about 55% of the time, or slightly more than half, and that assumes you can get all of them in the AOE. You need to drop hit points to about 10 before it becomes reliable at that IMO.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Not very reliably. Against 10 enemies with 14hps and a 20% chance of saving, a 3rd level fireball with no enhancements will clear all 10 of them out about 55% of the time, or slightly more than half, and that assumes you can get all of them in the AOE. You need to drop hit points to about 10 before it becomes reliable at that IMO.

Correct. But even if you roll slightly under average, only 2 make their save on average. So that averages out to 1 minion not dead on average with only a few points of HP left. Most sane minions flee at that point.

 

[Zardnaar]

Not very reliably. Against 10 enemies with 14hps and a 20% chance of saving, a 3rd level fireball with no enhancements will clear all 10 of them out about 55% of the time, or slightly more than half, and that assumes you can get all of them in the AOE. You need to drop hit points to about 10 before it becomes reliable at that IMO.

Spell DCs are generally in the 17-19 range.

70-90% failure rate on saves generally vs the mooks (+0-+2 dex, not proficient).

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't understand your paralyzed comments. If CO is better against Paralyzed opponents, that's a bit of a different argument, though now FB gets auto-fails on saves. The thread isn't "FB vs CO Late Tier 2 against paralyzed targets thoughts."

Getting back to straight rolls, at L8, I expect to have +5 spellcasting, so +8 to hit, Maybe +10 at L9 with a +1 magic item to improve and Prof at 4. You will miss enemies enough to notice.

On a real game though that's what is happening.

A fireball auto fail isn't that great vs free crit. The mooks are already failing 70-95% of the time.

In previous threads we crunch the numbers out including empower, seeking, and the feat that ignores elemental resistances as it effects COs bounce chance. So does crits.

I also forgot to mention magic initiate feats. Other classes lacking fireball cam pick it up if they want it badly enough.

Why you can't really White room fireball though is you can't reliably claim that it hits XYZ targets.

CO basically will. Only 3 opponents use a level 2 one. They've spread out a bit to avoid fireball are they within 30 feet?

CO also doesn't have friendly fire issues which once again limits fireballs effectiveness. And fires one of the worst elements to use as well.

Generally fireballs 4+ targets, bit of a waste on 2. 3 is it depends.

Paralyzed is a common enough condition as well espicially with hold monster in the mix. I don't include it in damage calculations.

White room vs real world. PCs will be using zones eg Spirit Guardians they will be using hold spells. Its stuff they are doing anyway. . So many classes have AoE mook clearing abilities. All clerics, druids. Sorcerers, Wizards. Bards kinda (may not be damage). Some Warlocks, Bards.

So fireballs mook killing abilities isn't really needed. And mooks ar these levels using RAW guidelines are going to be CR 2+.

10 CR 2s are only 4500 xp. That's with 5PCs that's not even a low encounter at level 10. You can add a CR 5 or 2 depending on how many mooks you want.

Even if you went to CR 1 or lower and ignore X2 suggestions the mooks are crap and easily cleared outside very oddball party compositions or very inexperienced players who don't have any of the myriad ways to deal with them.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Just today used fireballs against 5 trolls. Was very efficient.

5 characters (lvl5):
Fiend warlock
Champion fighter
Trickery cleric
Scout rogue
Glamour bard

2 sidekicks:
Warrior(defender)
expert

Spells used:
2 fireballs
1 bless (2nd level), lasted till the end of the encounter.
1 failed command.
Cantrips

That's it. The bard did not cast anything besides vicious mockery.

Fireball was extremely useful.
Bard used mantle of inspiration for repositioning just before the warlock.

All the party needs is a short rest and they can take on the next trolls.

Admittedly it was not high tier 2, but the fireballs hit 4 trolls of which only one made his saves (2 times, +1 vs DC 15)

Fireball damage: 105 and 119 (123 if you count the friendly fire against the warlock's own familiar).

Fight was over in 4 rounds.

Fireball took away more than two troll's worth of HP. The fighter and the rogue together took away about as much and the rest was done by the bard, the cleric and the sidekicks. One limb was created during the fight. One troll had 10 extra hp.


Hypnotic pattern could have been used, but was saved for later.

 

[Zardnaar]

Just today used fireballs against 5 trolls. Was very efficient.

5 characters (lvl5):
Fiend warlock
Champion fighter
Trickery cleric
Scout rogue
Glamour bard

2 sidekicks:
Warrior(defender)
expert

Spells used:
2 fireballs
1 bless (2nd level), lasted till the end of the encounter.
1 failed command.
Cantrips

That's it. The bard did not cast anything besides vicious mockery.

Fireball was extremely useful.
Bard used mantle of inspiration for repositioning just before the warlock.

All the party needs is a short rest and they can take on the next trolls.

Admittedly it was not high tier 2, but the fireballs hit 4 trolls of which only one made his saves (2 times, +1 vs DC 15)

Fireball damage: 105 and 119 (123 if you count the friendly fire against the warlock's own familiar).

Fight was over in 4 rounds.

Fireball took away more than two troll's worth of HP. The fighter and the rogue together took away about as much and the rest was done by the bard, the cleric and the sidekicks. One limb was created during the fight. One troll had 10 extra hp.


Hypnotic pattern could have been used, but was saved for later.

Trolls specifically fireballs very useful. We had a fireball break 200 damage Sunday.

Its how often that happens though. Also remember firebal was almost save or dies vs trolls once upon a time.

Trolls have 94 hit points each as well. 2 fireballs could have been 1 slow and something like a 3rd level tashas. They vave terrible wisdom saves (low wisdom saves = CR doesn't matter imho). They fail 75% of the time vs DC 15 saves (my group DCs are 17-18 or 19 with Innate Sorcery).

That's a 90% failure rate with those trolls. My fights typically last around 2-3 rounds. Odds are with alert feat the trolls wouldn't even get a go or at best 1 round each or a single attacks.

4 rounds what took so long? You used fireball that's why.

Our group

Glamour Bard
Light Cleric
Bladelock
Monk
Dragon Sorcerer.

No side kicks.

They've been eating CR 5s for breakfast for a while. Usually gladiators. Vampire Spawn or DM special vampire spawn (CR 6ish).

Slightly higher than high encounter.

Looks like you may be depleted in 3 more encounters (you kinda have short rest part though).

4 highs and maybe a 5th or 2 medium encounters seem to be the amount that depletes a party. Give or take.

If you had a long rest party you're going to be tanked after 3 encounters. So few encounters and you nova off?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Trolls specifically fireballs very useful. We had a fireball break 200 damage Sunday.

Correct

Its how often that happens though. Also remember firebal was almost save or dies vs trolls once upon a time.

Stopping regeneration was a nice bonus. Damage numbers would be the same vs other foes.

Trolls have 94 hit points each as well. 2 fireballs could have been 1 slow and something like a 3rd level tashas. They vave terrible wisdom saves (low wisdom saves = CR doesn't matter imho). They fail 75% of the time vs DC 15 saves (my group DCs are 17-18 or 19 with Innate Sorcery).

Correct.

That's a 90% failure rate with those trolls. My fights typically last around 2-3 rounds. Odds are with alert feat the trolls wouldn't even get a go or at best 1 round each or a single attacks.

We had alert feat and advantage on initiative.

4 rounds what took so long? You used fireball that's why.

500hp (one troll had 22 con and over 100hp, his limp had 16 extra hp)
And regeneration.

Please tell me where your damage comes from. Especially if you don't stop regeneration.
2-3 rounds sounds very short, even against slowed or tasha'd targets. Tasha'd targets can still crawl 15ft away. Get a save with advantage on damage. Admittedly, against DC 15, it is only a 1-0.75^2 =~ 45% chance to save, but it means they probably get out after 2 to 4 hits against them.

I am not even sure if it was 4 rounds. I think it was 3 and a half. Only because one limb proved to be a bit resistant.

Our group

Glamour Bard
Light Cleric
Bladelock
Monk
Dragon Sorcerer.

No side kicks.

Which level? How optimized? We used standard array and standard backgrounds for the whole party. Magic items are a bit more common than usual. AC is a bit higher than you'd expect at that level.

They've been eating CR 5s for breakfast for a while. Usually gladiators. Vampire Spawn or DM special vampire spawn (CR 6ish).

Slightly higher than high encounter.

Ours was a high encounter for 6 level 6 characters. Sidekicks were only level 4. So together probably doing less than one single lvl 5 PC. Warrior used mostly dodge. Expert did 20 damage or so.

Looks like you may be depleted in 3 more encounters (you kinda have short rest part though).

No. Can probably keep that up all day long as long as a short rest is possible.

4 highs and maybe a 5th or 2 medium encounters seem to be the amount that depletes a party. Give or take.

Hypnotic patterns are still in reserve.
Were just not needed.
Fireballs are easily replenished resources for a warlock.

And as I said, fireball is best vs more than 4 large top CR foes.
So this example was never meant to be a prime examplr of fireball usefulness. It was just an example where fireball was a very cost efficient tool in the party's toolbox. Dealing quite some damage. Stopping all (but one living) trolls' regeneration.

And best part: the warlock gets fireball for free on their spell list. Same as your light cleric.