D&D 5E (2024) Fireball Vs Chromatic Orb Late Tier 2 Thoughts.

[Zardnaar]

Correct

Stopping regeneration was a nice bonus. Damage numbers would be the same vs other foes.

Correct.

We had alert feat and advantage on initiative.

500hp (one troll had 22 con and over 100hp, his limp had 16 extra hp)
And regeneration.

Please tell me where your damage comes from. Especially if you don't stop regeneration.
2-3 rounds sounds very short, even against slowed or tasha'd targets. Tasha'd targets can still crawl 15ft away. Get a save with advantage on damage. Admittedly, against DC 15, it is only a 1-0.75^2 =~ 45% chance to save, but it means they probably get out after 2 to 4 hits against them.

I am not even sure if it was 4 rounds. I think it was 3 and a half. Only because one limb proved to be a bit resistant.

Which level? How optimized? We used standard array and standard backgrounds for the whole party. Magic items are a bit more common than usual. AC is a bit higher than you'd expect at that level.

Ours was a high encounter for 6 level 6 characters. Sidekicks were only level 4. So together probably doing less than one single lvl 5 PC. Warrior used mostly dodge. Expert did 20 damage or so.

No. Can probably keep that up all day long as long as a short rest is possible.

Hypnotic patterns are still in reserve.
Were just not needed.
Fireballs are easily replenished resources for a warlock.

And as I said, fireball is best vs more than 4 large top CR foes.
So this example was never meant to be a prime examplr of fireball usefulness. It was just an example where fireball was a very cost efficient tool in the party's toolbox. Dealing quite some damage. Stopping all (but one living) trolls' regeneration.

And best part: the warlock gets fireball for free on their spell list. Same as your light cleric.

Our groups level 10. Sorcerers burst or Chromatic Orb fire would be used if needed. There's 2 flaming weapons available as well but 1 player of them is an occasional player.

Monks deal way more damage than rogues. Level 5 he didn't have his current load out. He did have a quarterstaff with d4 fire damage on it.

Magic items are close to DMG.

Level 5/6 they had several +1', a couple with extra d4 damage (thunder and fire iirc) something like that.

You didn't so much prove fireball is good more going nova is good. We knew that already. I've stated multiple times the Warlock is very front loaded. Its good. Light cleric also has fireball so probably use that he was 13 niwc14 and is very aggressive with his fireballs.

I'm not claiming fireballs bad more it's C tier. Vs large enough groups and specific creatures eg Trolls it can be very good.

Two Chromatic Orbs would probably do 5d8 no save in effect unless he rolled double 1's. Trolls would probably get knocked prone at some point.

You're also assuming the Warlock gets a short rest. You still went nova.

 

[TigerDude]

I'm out, the rules of the game seem to have changed: "Chromatic Orb is super strong because paralyzed targets." Wow.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Our groups level 10. Sorcerers burst or Chromatic Orb fire would be used if needed. There's 2 flaming weapons available as well but 1 player of them is an occasional player.

Monks deal way more damage than rogues.

Maybe. The rogue however is still a very reliable source of good damage.
Does not miss a lot. Brings damage exactly where it is needed. Is very sturdy with his uncanny dodge. Can very reliably scout ahead. And never runs out of steam.

Level 5 he didn't have his current load out. He did have a quarterstaff with d4 fire damage on it.

We don't have such a specific item. This item of course would change the tactic against trolls. They can reliably prevent twp trolls from regenerating.

Magic items are close to DMG.

Level 5/6 they had several +1', a couple with extra d4 damage (thunder and fire iirc) something like that.

You didn't so much prove fireball is good more going nova is good. We knew that already. I've stated multiple times the Warlock is very front loaded. Its good. Light cleric also has fireball so probably use that he was 13 niwc14 and is very aggressive with his fireballs.

I'm not claiming fireballs bad more it's C tier. Vs large enough groups and specific creatures eg Trolls it can be very good

If you define C like that, I tend to agree. As I said many times before. I would downgrade other spells too.

Two Chromatic Orbs would probably do 5d8 no save in effect unless he rolled double 1's. Trolls would probably get knocked prone at some point.

Rather a hindrance for chromatic orb.

You're also assuming the Warlock gets a short rest. You still went nova.

The warlock went nova. And the warlock still has his 1min recharge ability.

The bard can recharge his inspirations with 1st level spells.

The fighter can't use action surge without a short rest. Still has 2 uses of second wind left.

The cleric could cast prayer of healing for an enhanced 10min short rest with extra healing.

Rogue never novas. Because they are independent of rests.

 

[Zardnaar]

Maybe. The rogue however is still a very reliable source of good damage.
Does not miss a lot. Brings damage exactly where it is needed. Is very sturdy with his uncanny dodge. Can very reliably scout ahead. And never runs out of steam.

We don't have such a specific item. This item of course would change the tactic against trolls. They can reliably prevent twp trolls from regenerating.

If you define C like that, I tend to agree. As I said many times before. I would downgrade other spells too.

Rather a hindrance for chromatic orb.

The warlock went nova. And the warlock still has his 1min recharge ability.

The bard can recharge his inspirations with 1st level spells.

The fighter can't use action surge without a short rest. Still has 2 uses of second wind left.

The cleric could cast prayer of healing for an enhanced 10min short rest with extra healing.

Rogue never novas. Because they are independent of rests.

Yeah your party has a lot of short rest abilities. New warlocks front loaded as well. Fireballs a C tier not D tier. We had a 200 point one other day but that's few and far between vs 150 damage COs.

How is your group finding new Champion? I quite like it and it's so good at higher levels.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Yeah your party has a lot of short rest abilities. New warlocks front loaded as well. Fireballs a C tier not D tier. We had a 200 point one other day but that's few and far between vs 150 damage COs.

How is your group finding new Champion? I quite like it and it's so good at higher levels.

The new champion rocks.

Weapon masteries, free movement on crits, advantage on initiative, extra second winds, second wind to enhance skills.

And farmer background for extra HP.
Human for heroic inspiration 1/day and lucky feat does not hurt either.

Are they as good as optimized battlemasters? Probably not. But she plays straight forward and does not have to worry about conserving resources. Which really helps for the player controling her.

I did expected the champion to be Tier A to B.
What I did not expect was how great the rogue proved in actual play. Being completely resource independent and able to switch between melee and ranged, being mobile and using steady aim, and being completely rest independent.
If I had to give a rating to the Rogue Power, it would also be Tier A to B.

The warlocks best power is not going down. Between false life and blade ward, sturdyness is its most powerful ability (although level 5 changed that).
False life and blade ward essentially takes 1 to 2 creatures out of the fight until they notice their efforts are rather futile.

The cleric surprisingly went down quite often despite his AC of 21 to 22, because of bad luck... Now that he had a few fights without that, I'd say he is really useful. Tier A at least.

The glamor bard is probably S-Tier. Mantle of inspirarion is just that good.

 

[Zardnaar]

The new champion rocks.

Weapon masteries, free movement on crits, advantage on initiative, extra second winds, second wind to enhance skills.

And farmer background for extra HP.
Human for heroic inspiration 1/day and lucky feat does not hurt either.

Are they as good as optimized battlemasters? Probably not. But she plays straight forward and does not have to worry about conserving resources. Which really helps for the player controling her.

I did expected the champion to be Tier A to B.
What I did not expect was how great the rogue proved in actual play. Being completely resource independent and able to switch between melee and ranged, being mobile and using steady aim, and being completely rest independent.
If I had to give a rating to the Rogue Power, it would also be Tier A to B.

The warlocks best power is not going down. Between false life and blade ward, sturdyness is its most powerful ability (although level 5 changed that).
False life and blade ward essentially takes 1 to 2 creatures out of the fight until they notice their efforts are rather futile.

The cleric surprisingly went down quite often despite his AC of 21 to 22, because of bad luck... Now that he had a few fights without that, I'd say he is really useful. Tier A at least.

The glamor bard is probably S-Tier. Mantle of inspirarion is just that good.

Think we gave similar views. Battlemasterbpeaks early level 10 champion probably beats it.

You're also at peak rogue it falls off from here on out.

Warlocks just good front loaded as well.ni rate it over wizard until 10ish (DM dependent though).

Glamour is obviously S tier. Ours is run by newer casual player and she still does fine.

Clerics are just good.

There's 4 classes I would play 1-20 in 5.0. 5.5 there's 4 I wouldn't play. Even then 3 of them are mostly fine 1-10.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Think we gave similar views. Battlemasterbpeaks early level 10 champion probably beats it.

You're also at peak rogue it falls off from here on out.

I think the rogue won't fall off before level 11.
Evasion, reliable talent and sneak attack going up and an extra feat, while som other classes more or less stagnate until level 11.

Warlocks just good front loaded as well.ni rate it over wizard until 10ish (DM dependent though).

Warlock really depends on rather frequent short rest to be offensively powrful. Their defenses and utility is always great.

Glamour is obviously S tier. Ours is run by newer casual player and she still does fine.

Yes. Bardic inspiration leaves choices with the receipient. A real enabler.

Clerics are just good.

Agreed.

There's 4 classes I would play 1-20 in 5.0. 5.5 there's 4 I wouldn't play. Even then 3 of them are mostly fine 1-10.

Which class would you not play?

I can't see a single class that is in any way bad in the 1 to 10 range.

 

[Zardnaar]

I think the rogue won't fall off before level 11.
Evasion, reliable talent and sneak attack going up and an extra feat, while som other classes more or less stagnate until level 11.

Warlock really depends on rather frequent short rest to be offensively powrful. Their defenses and utility is always great.

Yes. Bardic inspiration leaves choices with the receipient. A real enabler.

Agreed.

Which class would you not play?

I can't see a single class that is in any way bad in the 1 to 10 range.

I wouldn't play Barbarian, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard 1-20 in 5.5.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I wouldn't play Barbarian, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard 1-20 in 5.5.

Which would you not play at all?

 

[Zardnaar]

Which would you not play at all?

Probably none or 2014 artificer.

Unknown DM unknown end date probably wizard.