D&D 5E (2024) Fireball Vs Chromatic Orb Late Tier 2 Thoughts.

[Cap'n Kobold]

I would definitely say that late Tier 2, Chromatic Orb is better than fireball.
At lower levels the comparison is more towards fireball, but Chromatic Orb scales so much better once you're rolling enough dice that bounces become reliable.
Generally I've seen it used by Sorcerors, who have the advantage or often having advantage on the attack rolls.
While the attack rolls make it riskier, its ability to pick the damage type and hit multiple targets when they are mixed in with the rest of the party means that it is a good spell even for later in the fight, whereas fireball is often really only useful if you can get it off before the opposition moves - which means that it often competes with a control or buff spell you might want to start with as well.

 

[ECMO3]

But why? The damage doesn't support this conclusion. I've seen "But I can add metamagic to CO" but how about you can metamagic FB as well. The key thing that makes FB good is it always does damage. To-hit spells miss and do nothing. Sometimes you need to do damage.

Most of the time it does support the conclusion because fireball is difficult to place to use effectively. You can always use Chromatic Orb without concern about damaging enemies. It does not always do damage, but you can always use it and while you do 0 damage if you miss on the first attack, you are also more likely to do full damage because it is usually more easy to hit then it is for an enemy to fail a save and it is easier to create advantage on an attack roll than disadvantage on a saving throw. You can change your damage type to what is needed for an encounter.

Metamagic is not the reason I think it is better. You can use metamagic on either, but if we are talking about Sorcerer specifically, innate sorcery makes Chromatic Orb a lot better, while it is only a small improvement on Fireball. I was talking about casters in general when I said Chromatic Prb is better. In a Sorcerer this is no competition, it is rare that fireball will be better in tier 3. Metamagic does not really overcome the main problem with using fireball effectively and that is the AOE.

If you are not playing a Sorcerer the AOE really makes CO more effective most of the time. If you are playing an Evoker then Fireball is better, but on any other class/subclass I do not think it is generally better. It is situationally better.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Except you run out of gas fast.

No you do not.
Does not matter which 3rd level spell you use.

As I said I've stress tested up to 12th and 6 encounters plus boss fight 5.5 or 5m0 X5 deadly and I think we went up to ten encounters.

Ok. Maybe you do not last that long. But those kind of days seldom happen. And they are not RAW anymore.

The attrition based model basically doesn't work. Unless players blow all their spell slots throwing direct danage.

Does work. I'd really like to see your encounters... I have no problem dealing with my players (at least up to level 8 where fireball is still relevant).

Your assumption also assumes you can hit the targets and you're not nuking your own allies.

Yes. Which is why I call it situationally great. You assume your opponents are not immune to charm. Which is a quite common trait.

That limits the situations where AoE are useful.

Of course. That goes without saying.

COs always useful it's outclassed in those scenarios where AoEs are better.

Ah. Ok.

You can't quantify that as it's to DM, adventure, scenario dependent.

It is always dependent on the DM. This is what makes the game an RPG.

But generally, a DM should use varied encounters. So one tactic is not always superior.

 

[Zardnaar]

But why? The damage doesn't support this conclusion. I've seen "But I can add metamagic to CO" but how about you can metamagic FB as well. The key thing that makes FB good is it always does damage. To-hit spells miss and do nothing. Sometimes you need to do damage.

Fireball has save for half. CO optimized in effect has no save it's rare to miss. Its also any element. Fure one of the more common resistances. Lvl 4 spell slot it's 9d6 save for half vs 6d8 90 or 95% accuracy in effect with 10% crit chance. .

Critical hits and paralysis is what you're missing. 6d8 becomes 12d8 vs 9d6 no save.

COs reliable as well, bounce is 30'. FB is very dependent on creatures being clustered. If the DM spreads the out 20-25 feet apart CO is good to go FBs semi useless.

I've seen lvl 6 CO duplicate a chain lightning on 2 paralyzed targets then bounce and hit the other 6 targets. 16d8, 16d8, 5 targets 8d8 no save in effect (95% accuracy + rerolls). Over a large area as well (100'+)

Fireballs not really worth upcasting beyond 4th level. Occasionally you get a 200 hp one but it's few and far between. Light cleric may upcast it along with fiendpact Warlocks otherwise rare scenarios imho.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

if they had to make it "verisimilitude" and not have them just have 1HP have some "minion" monsters at every tier that have few enough HP that they get one-shot by an average AOE roll at that level, but do respectable (non-rolled, fixed) damage and have ultra-simple mechanics.

If you use monsters with 14 hp or less as minions they can be reliably cleared out with fireball in the first round. Something I sometimes use when designing encounters.

 

[Zardnaar]

If you use monsters with 14 hp or less as minions they can be reliably cleared out with fireball in the first round. Something I sometimes use when designing encounters.

Fireballs not needed for that. Our group would just radiance of the dawn stuff like that assuming they knew it was that weak.

And new zone spells better for that anyway (10/level duration).