D&D 5E (2024) Fireball Vs Chromatic Orb Late Tier 2 Thoughts.

[Zardnaar]

I don't understand what you mean with that. One Cr +3/+4 critter and 2 - 3 low level servants?
If you do that all the time, of course hold person will be way better than fireball.

My encounters usually have a spread of different monsters. Usually within the suggested guidelines:

- mixed groups

- and this:

CR 2 and 3 are the fragile critters at 10.

Look at xp budgets and keep it within the X2 number guidelines.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

All direct damage spells instantaneous imho are D or C tier.

This is an interesting opinion, because it's all about context, and I think the context you provide is, imho, rather unusual. 3 Deadly/High (2014/2024 terminology) and 3 Hard/Moderate or Normal/Easy (again 2014/2024 terminology) is a lot of encounters per day, and further it's much higher difficulty than is suggested even in 2024. I double-checked - the DMG 2024 suggests High encounters are for when you're really pressuring the PCs hard, for really important fights, and that Low/Moderate should be used for most encounters. You slamming the PCs with 50% High encounters is pretty much the equivalent to playing a videogame on Hard or Extra-Hard. Especially on 6 encounters/day days.

Now you play videogames, I know you do.

So you probably know that changing the difficulty level of a videogame can drastically impact what strategies are viable, and particularly, what spells are viable. And indeed, changing difficulties upwards in party-based fantasy RPGs strongly tends to up-value CC spells, particularly hard-to-break CC spells, and down-value AOE spells, because CC has the double-advantage of tending to make your damage dealers able to do more damage (either directly with stuff like Hold Monster auto-crits, or indirectly, by allowing damage dealers to focus on un-CC'd targets with much less risk and use more aggressive strategies).

And that's exactly what we're seeing here. As D&D doesn't have much of a way to "turbocharge" AOEs (unlike some videogames), and 5E doesn't use minions, and as you point out, doesn't want you to use more 2x PCs enemies*, AOEs that don't 1-2 shot some enemies aren't particularly impressive, and the harder things get, the less impressive they get. Whereas locking a serious bastard out of a fight (or multiple enemies), or just deleting them from existence, or massively impairing them, that has a lot more value.

So I'm sure in the context you're operating in, the very specific "Hard+" difficulty mode you want to run/play 5E 2024 in, everything you're saying is true (apart from BG3-created errors lol but I get that!), but I think for most players it's not going to be particularly meaningful.

* = The 2x PCs thing is both sensible from the perspective that if you don't do that, combat rounds can easily become 60-70% or more of the DM rolling and the PCs waiting (which degrades fun, in my experience), especially if the players are good and know what they're doing, but it's also quite limiting because it means "Minion"-type enemies can't really exist, and that changes the value of AOE a lot. I feel like 5E really, really should have retained "Minions" at least as a concept - if they had to make it "verisimilitude" and not have them just have 1HP have some "minion" monsters at every tier that have few enough HP that they get one-shot by an average AOE roll at that level, but do respectable (non-rolled, fixed) damage and have ultra-simple mechanics.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

CR 2 and 3 are the fragile critters at 10.

Look at xp budgets and keep it within the X2 number guidelines.

That is what I asked. I just did not understand your sentence.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I've been mining WotC adventures. Most of them have few activation/numbers.

At leveln10 CR 2 and 3 are essentially mooks. 4 level CR2s per CR5 for example.

A large encounter us 8-10 enemies as per DMG recommendations (first 5.5 playthrough).

I quoted the recommendation. They just say, that you need to be careful, especially at level 1 and 2.

Level 10 is not level 1 and 2.

CR 2 and 3 enemies are never critters. 40 to 70 hp is never not a lot.
Fireball still helps, although fireball is only a level 3 spell when you can cast level 5 spells.

For your level 3 slot, it still is quite good. Upcasting it is usually not good. Should it be buffed to 2d6 extra per level? Or a larger radius on top of +1d6?

Yes probably.

Both? Not necessarily.

I think casting it with a level 4 or 5 slot is only worth it if you are out of level 3 slots and you really want an area clear and maybe some fire started.

Most people forget that fireball has a secondary effect, btw:

Flammable objects in the area that aren’t being worn or carried start burning.

So it might be a concentearionless control spell in some cases. A thief can spill oil as a bonus action.

The mage can spill oil before the encounter starts.
Many dungeons have wooden beams to support the ceiling.

I know, still situational. But still a powerful option.

 

[Zardnaar]

I quoted the recommendation. They just say, that you need to be careful, especially at level 1 and 2.

Level 10 is not level 1 and 2.

CR 2 and 3 enemies are never critters. 40 to 70 hp is never not a lot.
Fireball still helps, although fireball is only a level 3 spell when you can cast level 5 spells.

For your level 3 slot, it still is quite good. Upcasting it is usually not good. Should it be buffed to 2d6 extra per level? Or a larger radius on top of +1d6?

Yes probably.

Both? Not necessarily.

I think casting it with a level 4 or 5 slot is only worth it if you are out of level 3 slots and you really want an area clear and maybe some fire started.

Most people forget that fireball has a secondary effect, btw:



So it might be a concentearionless control spell in some cases. A thief can spill oil as a bonus action.

The mage can spill oil before the encounter starts.
Many dungeons have wooden beams to support the ceiling.

I know, still situational. But still a powerful option.

Minimum probably +2d6 upcast.

Hell you coukd have it scale for free like 3.5 capped at 10d6. Still wouldn't be great.

Remember it wasn't wrll regarded then (probably B tier) and monsters had about half the hip points or less.

N8d6 looks impressive espicially vs 5d6 say in 2E-3E at 5th level.

They inflated monster HP though effectively steal nerfing it.

 

[Zardnaar]

This is an interesting opinion, because it's all about context, and I think the context you provide is, imho, rather unusual. 3 Deadly/High (2014/2024 terminology) and 3 Hard/Moderate or Normal/Easy (again 2014/2024 terminology) is a lot of encounters per day, and further it's much higher difficulty than is suggested even in 2024. I double-checked - the DMG 2024 suggests High encounters are for when you're really pressuring the PCs hard, for really important fights, and that Low/Moderate should be used for most encounters. You slamming the PCs with 50% High encounters is pretty much the equivalent to playing a videogame on Hard or Extra-Hard. Especially on 6 encounters/day days.

Now you play videogames, I know you do.

So you probably know that changing the difficulty level of a videogame can drastically impact what strategies are viable, and particularly, what spells are viable. And indeed, changing difficulties upwards in party-based fantasy RPGs strongly tends to up-value CC spells, particularly hard-to-break CC spells, and down-value AOE spells, because CC has the double-advantage of tending to make your damage dealers able to do more damage (either directly with stuff like Hold Monster auto-crits, or indirectly, by allowing damage dealers to focus on un-CC'd targets with much less risk and use more aggressive strategies).

And that's exactly what we're seeing here. As D&D doesn't have much of a way to "turbocharge" AOEs (unlike some videogames), and 5E doesn't use minions, and as you point out, doesn't want you to use more 2x PCs enemies*, AOEs that don't 1-2 shot some enemies aren't particularly impressive, and the harder things get, the less impressive they get. Whereas locking a serious bastard out of a fight (or multiple enemies), or just deleting them from existence, or massively impairing them, that has a lot more value.

So I'm sure in the context you're operating in, the very specific "Hard+" difficulty mode you want to run/play 5E 2024 in, everything you're saying is true (apart from BG3-created errors lol but I get that!), but I think for most players it's not going to be particularly meaningful.

* = The 2x PCs thing is both sensible from the perspective that if you don't do that, combat rounds can easily become 60-70% or more of the DM rolling and the PCs waiting (which degrades fun, in my experience), especially if the players are good and know what they're doing, but it's also quite limiting because it means "Minion"-type enemies can't really exist, and that changes the value of AOE a lot. I feel like 5E really, really should have retained "Minions" at least as a concept - if they had to make it "verisimilitude" and not have them just have 1HP have some "minion" monsters at every tier that have few enough HP that they get one-shot by an average AOE roll at that level, but do respectable (non-rolled, fixed) damage and have ultra-simple mechanics.

That was a stress test. Think it was 2 low, 2 moderate, 2 high then boss fight.

I prepared 8 encounters they found 6 of them.

Prepared 6 for this round looks like they'll do 3 then boss fight. I'm kinda doing themed ones eg Mykul is undead heavy, Baneites humanoid and spell caster heavy, Bhaal will be assassin types heavy.

Level 12 probably truncated. 1 of each. 1-3 outsider heavy encounters, boss fight campaign ends.
.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Minimum probably +2d6 upcast.

Or more areay which I would prefer.

Hell you coukd have it scale for free like 3.5 capped at 10d6. Still wouldn't be great.

No free scaling. Actually there is one free scaling spell: polymorph... Terrible design. I tell my players that spell slot used is the cap for CR. Or even half spell level.

Remember it wasn't wrll regarded then (probably B tier) and monsters had about half the hip points or less.

You can't compare 3e and 5e. In 3e there was no concentration and save or such was too good.

N8d6 looks impressive espicially vs 5d6 say in 2E-3E at 5th level.

It is spot on for level 3.

They inflated monster HP though effectively steal nerfing it.

Because area damage should not be effective single target.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

That was a stress test. Think it was 2 low, 2 moderate, 2 high then boss fight.

I prepared 8 encounters they found 6 of them.

Prepared 6 for this round looks like they'll do 3 then boss fight. I'm kinda doing themed ones eg Mykul is undead heavy, Baneites humanoid and spell caster heavy, Bhaal will be assassin types heavy.

Level 12 probably truncated. 1 of each. 1-3 outsider heavy encounters, boss fight campaign ends.
.

Sure but the context you're using remains exceptionally tough, and that naturally leads to highly valuing CC spells.

The other thing that's very context-based is party make-up. You seem to assuming the party has a lot of non-spellcasting (or limited spellcasting) damage dealers - i.e. Fighter/Rogue/Barbarian/Ranger/Paladin/etc. and these people will do the majority of the damage, either by killing hard-CC'd targets (Hold Person etc.) or by focus-firing non-CC'd targets where soft-CC is being used.

But a lot of parties don't have that makeup. Many parties are mostly or even entirely Full Casters. In those cases, suddenly the value of instant direct damage spells goes up a lot, because you're not going to win fights by just spamming cantrips lol.

 

[Zardnaar]

Or more areay which I would prefer.

No free scaling. Actually there is one free scaling spell: polymorph... Terrible design. I tell my players that spell slot used is the cap for CR. Or even half spell level.

You can't compare 3e and 5e. In 3e there was no concentration and save or such was too good.

It is spot on for level 3.

Because area damage should not be effective single target.

I'm leaning towards danage spells scaling for free. Polymorph would not.

Damage spells haven't been good since 2E as they overhauled saves.

You still have large variances in good and bad saves. Hell target into, cha then wisdom with spells in that order.

5E casters basically suck at killing stuff as they lack save or dies generally. Save or suck let martials deal with it seems best imho. Most of them rock now.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I'm leaning towards danage spells scaling for free. Polymorph would not.

Damage spells haven't been good since 2E as they overhauled saves.

I really disagree.
One stealth buff for 2024: many mosters lost proficiency in saves.
So many monsters just fail against dex save spells. Especially spellcasters.
Also, even a successful save triggers a concentration save for them.

You still have large variances in good and bad saves. Hell target into, cha then wisdom with spells in that order.

Knowing when to use which is important.

5E casters basically suck at killing stuff as they lack save or dies generally.

No. They can do a lot of damage. Just not against single targets. Reducing all the enemy HP by 15-35 or so means a lot. Makes the life of single target damage dealers easier (one to three hits less to kill the main target.)

Save or suck let martials deal with it seems best imho. Most of them rock now.

If they save, those spells do nothing.

Hold person is really good as it makes every hit a critical if you can land it. But often it is better to deal with the enemies who saved against the spell, because they are still doing damage.

All that said: I don't disagree with control spells being great. But if your concentration slot is used, damage spells really help win the fight.

Or area spells help clearing the battlefield to reach the real enemies better. Reduce the chance that a mook disturbs your concentration.

In the end, situationally great spells are better than all purpose good spells if you can cover many standard situations.

And then, as you know from online RPGs:
One caster using area damage spells is ok. 4 casters all using damage spells is very dangerous.

3 fireballs with 35% save rate do an average of about 66 damage to a 20ft radius area.
That should be enough to kill most CR 2 to 3 critters.