D&D 5E (2024) Fireball Vs Chromatic Orb Late Tier 2 Thoughts.

[Zardnaar]

So the consensus is damage is probably not the thing to do for spells, but the original premise was somehow that Chromatic Orb was good. Still haven't seen how that is the case.

Its one of tge better damage dealing spells but still da age dealing. B for me.

Sorcerers can do more with it. Its a lot better for them. Also plays nice with things like twinned spell, empower, seeking.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Im designing RAW and try and add a few mooks vs 3 or 4 higher CR critters. I have those encounters as well.

I don't understand what you mean with that. One Cr +3/+4 critter and 2 - 3 low level servants?
If you do that all the time, of course hold person will be way better than fireball.

My encounters usually have a spread of different monsters. Usually within the suggested guidelines:

- mixed groups

- and this:

If your encounter includes more than two creatures per character, include fragile creatures that can be defeated quickly. This guideline is especially important for characters of level 1 or 2.

 

[Horwath]

Fireball discussions always make me laugh. In a campaign I'm playing in that's 15th level, I have a bladesinger Wizard. I didn't have fireball until the party chipped in and bought me a scroll because it "wasn't right." I've never cast it.

Now in the game I'm currently playing, we just hit 11th level and one player has an evoker. People ask why he doesn't seem as powerful as the wizard in the other game, and it's because he casts pretty much AOE damage spells only. I bought him a Counterspell scroll and said "please memorize this so that my bard doesn't have to take it to keep us alive."

The Wizard really is a class that can range from god mode to "okay."

Every DM cries tears of joy when a "mage" player decides to play a "blaster".
it's just damage. and not that good of a damage source.

Fireball might be OK at 5th level, but the scaling is horrible.

how to make fireball better?

scaling:
4th level, 10d6, 25ft radius
5th level, 12d6, 30ft radius
6th level, 15d6, 35ft radius
7th level, 17d6, 40ft radius
8th level, 19d6, 45ft radius
9th level, 22d6, 50ft radius

another option:
reducing radius to increase damage.
every 5ft reduction in radius increases damage by +1d6
reducing radius to 0, makes fireball a ray with a ranged magic attack.

that would make 3rd level fireball 12d6 ray of fire with ranged magic attack.
and 9th level fireball a 32d6 ray of fire(still less damage than Meteor Swarm).


another option #2:
throw out scorching ray.

reduce fireball level to 2nd level spell:

5d6 fire damage, 15ft radius, dex save for half
with reduction in radius and increase in damage it would be:
6d6, 10ft radius, dex save for half
7d6, 5ft radius, dex save for half
8d6, ray of fire, ranged magic attack

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Every DM cries tears of joy when a "mage" player decides to play a "blaster".
it's just damage. and not that good of a damage source.

Fireball might be OK at 5th level, but the scaling is horrible.

Yes.

how to make fireball better?

scaling:
4th level, 10d6, 25ft radius
5th level, 12d6, 30ft radius
6th level, 15d6, 35ft radius
7th level, 17d6, 40ft radius
8th level, 19d6, 45ft radius
9th level, 22d6, 50ft radius

I think the damage scaling should be horrible for blast spells. This damage scaling will make multiclassing way more (too?) attractive.

I do like the radius increase though. It should be able to decimate armies. Not single targets.

another option:
reducing radius to increase damage.
every 5ft reduction in radius increases damage by +1d6
reducing radius to 0, makes fireball a ray with a ranged magic attack.

Combined with the above suggestion would not be terrible.

I think it should be 10ft reductions though. Having a 10d6 save half level 3 single target ray is not bad at all.

that would make 3rd level fireball 12d6 ray of fire with ranged magic attack.
and 9th level fireball a 32d6 ray of fire(still less damage than Meteor Swarm).

But easier to use.

another option #2:
throw out scorching ray.

reduce fireball level to 2nd level spell:

5d6 fire damage, 15ft radius, dex save for half
with reduction in radius and increase in damage it would be:
6d6, 10ft radius, dex save for half
7d6, 5ft radius, dex save for half
8d6, ray of fire, ranged magic attack

Nah. You can't reduce fireball to level 2 for legacy reasons.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't understand what you mean with that. One Cr +3/+4 critter and 2 - 3 low level servants?
If you do that all the time, of course hold person will be way better than fireball.

My encounters usually have a spread of different monsters. Usually within the suggested guidelines:

- mixed groups

- and this:

I've been mining WotC adventures. Most of them have few activation/numbers.

At leveln10 CR 2 and 3 are essentially mooks. 4 level CR2s per CR5 for example.

A large encounter us 8-10 enemies as per DMG recommendations (first 5.5 playthrough).

 

[FrogReaver]

On control vs damage

IMO direct damage aoe spells are very underrated by modern d&d char op community.

But so much depends on how the particular encounters are structured. So it doesn’t surprise me that at some tables direct damage aoe fares worse than control spells.

What I believe happens is mostly a combination of a few things

1) players feel control spells are more impactful because their impact can be immediately seen.

2) players remember the times the control spells hit every important enemy and forget the times it completely missed.

3) DMs tend to rule favorably for control spells. Enemies not shaking others out of hypnotic pattern, favorable rulings on Fear end conditions. Then there’s also concentration

On fireball vs chromatic orb

1) Chromatic orb is only actually good on sorcerers.

2) if fireball is a C then chromatic orb is at best a C+, but that’s only for a sorcerer dumping metamagic and other sorcerer abilities into it. For everyone else it’s probably closer to a D.

 

[FrogReaver]

A level 3 fireball does on average 28 damage and 14 on a miss. I don’t know the actual hp of cr appropriate enemies for a level 10 party, but I think 140 is probably a fine estimate. Do you do between 10% and 20% of hp damage for every enemy hit. Essentially you end the encounter about 15% faster assuming you can target most enemies. Do the same with a hypnotic pattern (assuming 50% chance to ‘hit’) and you’ve taken out half the enemies for nearly the whole encounter. However if the others wake them up then you’ve actually just reduced the encounter by somewhere between 1 and 0.5 turns. Assuming a 5 round encounter that’s essentially 10% to 20% of enemy actions taken away. Very similar to fireball. It’s just there’s a ton of upside if the dm doesn’t have enemies shake each other out of it. There’s also upside for control if the encounter would end faster than 5 rounds.

There’s also the concern that if you are already killing enemies in few rounds then adding more damage from fireball is unlikely to lower the number of rounds enemies get actions. Which basically means that if your party otherwise does really good damage then fireball is less effective.

Of particular note is fireball is not concentration. Concentration isn’t usually factored into control spell impact and the ability to cast a 2nd fireball in an encounter or in addition to a control spell can drastically weight toward fireballs effectiveness.

 

[Zardnaar]

A level 3 fireball does on average 28 damage and 14 on a miss. I don’t know the actual hp of cr appropriate enemies for a level 10 party, but I think 140 is probably a fine estimate. Do you do between 10% and 20% of hp damage for every enemy hit. Essentially you end the encounter about 15% faster assuming you can target most enemies. Do the same with a hypnotic pattern (assuming 50% chance to ‘hit’) and you’ve taken out half the enemies for nearly the whole encounter. However if the others wake them up then you’ve actually just reduced the encounter by somewhere between 1 and 0.5 turns. Assuming a 5 round encounter that’s essentially 10% to 20% of enemy actions taken away. Very similar to fireball. It’s just there’s a ton of upside if the dm doesn’t have enemies shake each other out of it. There’s also upside for control if the encounter would end faster than 5 rounds.

There’s also the concern that if you are already killing enemies in few rounds then adding more damage from fireball is unlikely to lower the number of rounds enemies get actions. Which basically means that if your party otherwise does really good damage then fireball is less effective.

Of particular note is fireball is not concentration. Concentration isn’t usually factored into control spell impact and the ability to cast a 2nd fireball in an encounter or in addition to a control spell can drastically weight toward fireballs effectiveness.

Commands the big offender. No concentration can be extended or twinned for cheap.

Any critter with a weak wisdom save isn't really worth their CR . I've had a CR 13 critter +6 wisdom save with spell resistance. Got 1 turn.

 

[Baumi]

Command ist awesome, but it cannot be extended since it doesn't have 1min or more duration.

 

[Zardnaar]

Command ist awesome, but it cannot be extended since it doesn't have 1min or more duration.

Might have to reread/confused with BG3.

Its usually twinned or bonus action glamour bard.