D&D 5E (2024) Fireball Vs Chromatic Orb Late Tier 2 Thoughts.

[Zardnaar]

I really disagree.
One stealth buff for 2024: many mosters lost proficiency in saves.
So many monsters just fail against dex save spells. Especially spellcasters.
Also, even a successful save triggers a concentration save for them.


Knowing when to use which is important.

No. They can do a lot of damage. Just not against single targets. Reducing all the enemy HP by 15-35 or so means a lot. Makes the life of single target damage dealers easier (one to three hits less to kill the main target.)

If they save, those spells do nothing.

Hold person is really good as it makes every hit a critical if you can land it. But often it is better to deal with the enemies who saved against the spell, because they are still doing damage.

All that said: I don't disagree with control spells being great. But if your concentration slot is used, damage spells really help win the fight.

Or area spells help clearing the battlefield to reach the real enemies better. Reduce the chance that a mook disturbs your concentration.

In the end, situationally great spells are better than all purpose good spells if you can cover many standard situations.

And then, as you know from online RPGs:
One caster using area damage spells is ok. 4 casters all using damage spells is very dangerous.

3 fireballs with 35% save rate do an average of about 66 damage to a 20ft radius area.
That should be enough to kill most CR 2 to 3 critters.

3 will likely do it but you kinda of proves the point how anemic they are.

3 AoE or multiple target control spells would probably shut tge encounter down.
Single target Save or sucks not such a fan.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

3 will likely do it but you kinda of proves the point how anemic they are.

They are not anemic. They do what they are supposed to do.
I opt out now.

3 AoE or multiple target control spells would probably shut tge encounter down.

If nothing breaks concentration.
Different saving throw.

Single target Save or sucks not such a fan.

Some spells are good. Command is a great level 1 control spell. Single target or multi target. No concentration.

Your problem seems to be that you only see black and white while there are many shades of grey.

Good level 3 spell usage might be:
Slow first, fireball second.
Or with level 4 spells:
evards black tentacles first, fireball second.
Or level 2: web first, fireball second.

 

[ECMO3]

So the consensus is damage is probably not the thing to do for spells, but the original premise was somehow that Chromatic Orb was good. Still haven't seen how that is the case.

I would not say CO was a good spell, but I would say it is generally a better (or I guess you can say less bad) spell than Fireball,assuming the same slot level for both.

If you told me I had room to prepare either CO or Fireball, but not both, I would pick CO.

 

[Zardnaar]

They are not anemic. They do what they are supposed to do.
I opt out now.

If nothing breaks concentration.
Different saving throw.

Some spells are good. Command is a great level 1 control spell. Single target or multi target. No concentration.

Your problem seems to be that you only see black and white while there are many shades of grey.

Good level 3 spell usage might be:
Slow first, fireball second.
Or with level 4 spells:
evards black tentacles first, fireball second.
Or level 2: web first, fireball second.

If they use sliw it's usually that plus command/hold/tashas whatever on what's left over or stunning stike.

Way of Fists Monk, glamour bard, bladelock, Dragon sorcerer if we hit 5 or 6 players light cleric. New barbarian player whose occasional at this point.

Beatsticks are monk and warlock.

Anything with bad wisdom save isn't worth the CR it's printed at. One of them figured out commands really good and the other two started copying them.

Honorable mention to tashas hideous laughter/sleep.

Concentrations hard to break as most things will be missing turns/useless if slow/hypnotic pattern/confusion have been used.

Initiative manipulation via alert feat as well. Only the tougher monsters with 5.5 boosted Initiative can somewhat reliably win.

 

[Zardnaar]

I would not say CO was a good spell, but I would say it is generally a better (or I guess you can say less bad) spell than Fireball,assuming the same slot level for both.

If you told me I had room to prepare either CM or Fireball, but not both, I would pick CM.

So would I. There's other spells for fodder clearing.

CO being less bad as Fireball nit a bad description lol. Without sorcerer to manipulate it it probably falls off hard.

I may take CO on certain classes via feat eg warlocks, cleric druids as they lack anything equivalent eg no fireball.

I would probably do acid sorcerer next just to test it but better one is probably aberrant mind if 5.0 options are allowed.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

If they use sliw it's usually that plus command/hold/tashas whatever on what's left over or stunning stike.

Way of Fists Monk, glamour bard, bladelock, Dragon sorcerer if we hit 5 or 6 players light cleric. New barbarian player whose occasional at this point.

Beatsticks are monk and warlock.

Anything with bad wisdom save isn't worth the CR it's printed at. One of them figured out commands really good and the other two started copying them.

Honorable mention to tashas hideous laughter/sleep.

Concentrations hard to break as most things will be missing turns/useless if slow/hypnotic pattern/confusion have been used.

Initiative manipulation via alert feat as well. Only the tougher monsters with 5.5 boosted Initiative can somewhat reliably win.

Yes. Good tactics. Totally ok. Never said that it is bad.
If you can crowd control everyone, fine.
But switch all spellcasters to wizards* and just use fireballs. The outcome is the same.

*or lore bard, dragon sorcerer, fiend warlock, light cleric.

 

[Zardnaar]

Yes. Good tactics. Totally ok. Never said that it is bad.
If you can crowd control everyone, fine.
But switch all spellcasters to wizards* and just use fireballs. The outcome is the same.

*or lore bard, dragon sorcerer, fiend warlock, light cleric.

Except you run out of gas fast.

As I said I've stress tested up to 12th and 6 encounters plus boss fight 5.5 or 5m0 X5 deadly and I think we went up to ten encounters.

The attrition based model basically doesn't work. Unless players blow all their spell slots throwing direct danage.

Your assumption also assumes you can hit the targets and you're not nuking your own allies.

That limits the situations where AoE are useful. COs always useful it's outclassed in those scenarios where AoEs are better.

You can't quantify that as it's to DM, adventure, scenario dependent.

 

[ECMO3]

So would I. There's other spells for fodder clearing.

CO being less bad as Fireball nit a bad description lol. Without sorcerer to manipulate it it probably falls off hard.

I may take CO on certain classes via feat eg warlocks, cleric druids as they lack anything equivalent eg no fireball.

I would probably do acid sorcerer next just to test it but better one is probably aberrant mind if 5.0 options are allowed.

CO is actually one of very few spells that is a more efficient high level cast than a low level cast. If you cast it with a 6th level spell it is gauranteed to hit 7 enemies for 8d8 us long as you keep hitting with your attack roll. When you add in things like Bardic Inspiration, Heroic Inspiration and Lucky Feat and spell synergies to give advantage you can usually do that reliably if you build for it.

 

[Zardnaar]

CO is actually one of very few spells that is a more efficient high level cast than a low level cast. If you cast it with a 6th level spell it is gauranteed to hit 7 enemies for 8d8 us long as you keep hitting with your attack roll. When you add in things like Bardic Inspiration, Heroic Inspiration and Lucky Feat and spell synergies to give advantage you can usually do that reliably if you build for it.

Yeah seeking spell as well.

Just having a discussion with elven accuracy and an acid build.

Metamagics are empower and energy substitution. Or ditching energy substitution and ignoring fb/lb.

Okd reddit post right near release compared it vs chain lightning. I thought they were joking then I read it.

I've just been thinking about how to make it better since.

 

[TigerDude]

I would not say CO was a good spell, but I would say it is generally a better (or I guess you can say less bad) spell than Fireball,assuming the same slot level for both.

If you told me I had room to prepare either CO or Fireball, but not both, I would pick CO.

But why? The damage doesn't support this conclusion. I've seen "But I can add metamagic to CO" but how about you can metamagic FB as well. The key thing that makes FB good is it always does damage. To-hit spells miss and do nothing. Sometimes you need to do damage.