D&D 5E (2024) Fireball Vs Chromatic Orb Late Tier 2 Thoughts.

[Benjamin Olson]

Unpopular opinion time. Fireballs still a tier C spell. Situationally it can be A but Situational spells are inherently tge definition of C tier spells. Doesn't mean theyre bad just Situational.

Well all spells are "situational". It's really a matter of how often the situation they are for comes up in your game. A "situational" spell for a situation that comes up regularly is a good spell.

It seems like you design encounters around CRs, and yeah Fireball doesn't shine for very long there. I design important set-piece encounters with CR in mind, but the packs of goblins, kobolds, zombies, bandits, orcs, town guards, and commoners don't disappear from my world or stop doing their things just because the players have leveled past them. They continue existing wherever it makes sense for them to exist, and while I'm not going to plan a lot of big encounters around them (except the occasional, post level-up "steamroll these mooks to feel awesome" encounter), if it makes sense that the enemy the players actually need to fight has a lair swarming with mooks of a particular ilk then said lair will swarm with mooks of said ilk, and players have ways of creating their own encounters anyway. Which is all to say that tables that take a more simulationist approach, where the world doesn't change CR to match the players, will continue to have Fireball and other high quality low level spells have more continued relevance, whereas tables that are more gamist, where players leveling up causes every creature they encounter to have also levelled up, aren't going to have nearly as much use for such things.

Fireball is a good spell at most tables I've run or played at. It does an above average amount of damage for its spell slot in a relatively easy to position area of effect. It's main flaw is not living up to its reputation, because nothing possibly could.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Well all spells are "situational". It's really a matter of how often the situation they are for comes up in your game. A "situational" spell for a situation that comes up regularly is a good spell.

It seems like you design encounters around CRs, and yeah Fireball doesn't shine for very long there. I design important set-piece encounters with CR in mind, but the packs of goblins, kobolds, zombies, bandits, orcs, town guards, and commoners don't disappear from my world or stop doing their things just because the players have leveled past them. They continue existing wherever it makes sense for them to exist, and while I'm not going to plan a lot of big encounters around them (except the occasional, post level-up "steamroll these mooks to feel awesome" encounter), if it makes sense that the enemy the players actually need to fight has a lair swarming with mooks of a particular ilk then said lair will swarm with mooks of said ilk, and players have ways of creating their own encounters anyway.

That is one thing I really love about 5e.

You do not need high level mooks. You don't have to fill every bandid hideout with level 5 bandids to make an interesting encounter for level 5 characters.

Outnumber your players 4 to 1 and give them favorable terrain and some ranged weapons and strike fear into your players.

So next time they will try for a better approach. Sneaking in by night, and so on. Armies in 5e are dangerous.

 

[Zardnaar]

That is one thing I really love about 5e.

You do not need high level mooks. You don't have to fill every bandid hideout with level 5 bandids to make an interesting encounter for level 5 characters.

Outnumber your players 4 to 1 and give them favorable terrain and some ranged weapons and strike fear into your players.

So next time they will try for a better approach. Sneaking in by night, and so on. Armies in 5e are dangerous.

RAW the DMG is saying don't do that.

Hence of you have to do that to make fireball good it means it's not that good.

 

[Zardnaar]

Well all spells are "situational". It's really a matter of how often the situation they are for comes up in your game. A "situational" spell for a situation that comes up regularly is a good spell.

It seems like you design encounters around CRs, and yeah Fireball doesn't shine for very long there. I design important set-piece encounters with CR in mind, but the packs of goblins, kobolds, zombies, bandits, orcs, town guards, and commoners don't disappear from my world or stop doing their things just because the players have leveled past them. They continue existing wherever it makes sense for them to exist, and while I'm not going to plan a lot of big encounters around them (except the occasional, post level-up "steamroll these mooks to feel awesome" encounter), if it makes sense that the enemy the players actually need to fight has a lair swarming with mooks of a particular ilk then said lair will swarm with mooks of said ilk, and players have ways of creating their own encounters anyway. Which is all to say that tables that take a more simulationist approach, where the world doesn't change CR to match the players, will continue to have Fireball and other high quality low level spells have more continued relevance, whereas tables that are more gamist, where players leveling up causes every creature they encounter to have also levelled up, aren't going to have nearly as much use for such things.

Fireball is a good spell at most tables I've run or played at. It does an above average amount of damage for its spell slot in a relatively easy to position area of effect. It's main flaw is not living up to its reputation, because nothing possibly could.

Im designing RAW and try and add a few mooks vs 3 or 4 higher CR critters. I have those encounters as well.

They're very vulnerable to hold monsters, fomnand type spells.

Takes around 4 high encounters before my players start sweating. A low encounter is about half the xp iirc.

 

[cbwjm]

That opinion might be unpopular for brand new players mesmerized by a giant pile of dice falling on the table, but anyone who's ever actually looked at the math knows that Fireball has always been extremely overrated in DnD 5e.

Overrated since 3e with the increase in monster hit points.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

RAW the DMG is saying don't do that.

Nah. It says, you should be careful about doing that. But if the players are not careful, why should I want to be?

Hence of you have to do that to make fireball good it means it's not that good.

Nah. It means that it is good for what it does. Even if you are only facing 10 creatures against a level 5 party. Let them be CR 2 or so. Fireballs still do their job. Taking away an average 27 HP (or 13 on a successful save) on 10 creatures without concentration instantly is 270 (130) damage you don't have to deal later. It will make the. 27 lower HP totals can mean that creatures drop a round earlier (usually you attack those that failed the save first).

DOT spells always need time. Concentration could be useful on ther spells. Concentration could be broken.
Control spells often are save for no effect. 13 Damage is not a lot but still worth around a single hit from a level 5 fighter.

Is it good against single enemies? Usually not.
Against bigger opposition. Yes.

Situationally very good.

 

[ECMO3]

A While Ago I posted about how I thought Chromatic Orb May Be Good and Fireball was a C tier spell.

Alot of this is due to hit point inflation. Fireballs good at fodder clearing my counter argument is it's still pointless at that due to so many classes having fodder clearing abilities via zone effects (Druid spells, spirit guardians, etc).

I have also been running encounters RAW in the DMG. So far 5.5 is better than 5.0. As you level up it's hard to fit fodder as such in. Mooks are really CR 2 or 3 unless you ignore the DMG which suggest you don't outnumber PCs more than 2-1.

Im doing less than 6-8 encounters that's our the window. 3-6 is more typical per long rest just to add context. 3 high encounters and 1-3 low or medium encounters tends to tap PCs out. 4 high encounters also tends to add stress. Party size is usually 5 sometimes 4 or 6 so 8-12 tends to be maximum size of encounters. I'm running RAW for the time being. New edition, 1st time level 8-10.

Unpopular opinion time. Fireballs still a tier C spell. Situationally it can be A but Situational spells are inherently tge definition of C tier spells. Doesn't mean theyre bad just Situational.

All direct damage spells instantaneous imho are D or C tier. I'm not counting recurring same ones eg Spirit Guardians. The exceptions have some sort of rider effect eg Synaptic Static or secret sauce extra effect eg Chromatic Orb.

However COs effectiveness has been distorted by a Dragon Sorcerer using it. Their AoEs are better than single target spells as charisma only applies to one roll. CO also takes time. The Sorcerer now has Empower, twin, quicken and Seeking spell metamagic and innate sorcery.

So overall chromatic orb useful in more situations than FB. Upcast 4+ or 3+ as Sorcerers better most of the time. Probably not worth upcasting to 5th or 6th my players tend to cap it at 4th. Its competing with things like twinned Hold Monster or Synaptic Static plus other spell. Exception being va paralyzed targets (said hold monster/person).

Overall it's a B imho. Versatile and available at low levels. As a direct damage spell it's an A tier spell, S tier for dragon Sorcerers. Its main downsides are its direct damage and it can take a while to resolve per target per bounce plus empower or seeking to help it bounce. Vs AoE.

Subject to DM encounter design. Sample encounters recently.

3 night hags, nalfeshnee, archmage.
6 Warriors veterans+cultist hierophant
6 warriors+ veterans hierophant+ archepriest
6 Warrior veterans+ warrior commander, + gladiator

Baneites.

Some AoEs have connected with 7 targets, CO generally been 4th level casting. DCs 16-20 due to items and/or innate sorcery and who casts what.


Other thoughts.

CR 3s generally take a double tap to kill or put in 1 shot range. Eg fireball X2 or fireball+ lightning bolt or synaptic static. On paper and upcast fireball or lightning bolt deals more damage. Real world synaptic static obsolete both upcast (psychic damage, int save + debuff> 2d6 damage imho).

Having seen a substantial amount of 2024 5E play, I think Chromatic Orb is generally a better spell than Fireball if using the same level slot for both.

Fireball is situationally much better, and arguably more reliable damage, but at most slot levels Chromatic Orb will be statistically comparable and it is far more usable. Chromatic Orb also allows you to change damage types.

 

[Zardnaar]

Overrated since 3e with the increase in monster hit points.

Yeah it's gotten worse every edition really.

New fireball is 3d6 or 4d6 in 3.5.

 

[TigerDude]

So the consensus is damage is probably not the thing to do for spells, but the original premise was somehow that Chromatic Orb was good. Still haven't seen how that is the case.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

So the consensus is damage is probably not the thing to do for spells, but the original premise was somehow that Chromatic Orb was good. Still haven't seen how that is the case.

The important thing is for the spell to take enemies out of the fight. Reducing them to zero hp is a great way to take an enemy out of a fight, if the spell can reliably do that.