What are people doing with the epic handbook?
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Derulbaskul
Adventurer
Has anyone played characters past 20th level WITHOUT using the smoothed saving throw and BAB progressions? How did it work out?
Did you also allow those characters who hadn't hit BAB 16+ by 20th level but who subsequently hit BAB 16+ to have four attacks per round?
Did you also allow those characters who hadn't hit BAB 16+ by 20th level but who subsequently hit BAB 16+ to have four attacks per round?
ruleslawyer
Registered User
I use the ELH reasonably extensively in my (started in 1e, continued through 2e, converted to 3e) main campaign, but my philosophy is similar to Piratecat's and Sepulchrave's. Fact is, I tinkered with sub-epic high-level play rules much more than with epic rules when I went through my books with the editor's axe. The potential for abuse given stuff like forcecage, time stop, 3.0 harm, and 3.5 shapechange vastly outstrip any playability issues raised by the ELH (except epic ability buff spells; see below).
I quite like the epic rules, generally; the two major turkeys, IMHO, are the epic skill DCs and epic spellcasting, which just annoys me. While I take Sep's point to heart, it's really irritating that pretty much the ONLY effective use of epic spells is to pump your casting stat into the 100s, and that use is really an ABuse.
I'm fond of the feats, the PrCs, the EAB and epic save rules, the monsters, and the epic class progressions. I've skipped over everything else, which means that I really could have done without buying the book and just used the relevant SRD sections. But I'm actually fond of the epic rules; they give me a starting tempate for 21+ level play that I'd never have wanted to generate on my lonesome.
I've just started a new game (the PCs are now 2nd level) and will be using the epic rules if the PCs ever rise that high. For now, "epic spells" provide a good catch-all for the ancient magical effects scattered around my campaign world, and a few of the NPCs are epic level, with correspondingly neat abilities. I've also dropped some of the (IMHO) weaker epic feats (Armor Skin, Legendary Rider) to feats with the [Legendary] descriptor; these feats can be taken by fighters and a few others with their class bonus feats (only).
I quite like the epic rules, generally; the two major turkeys, IMHO, are the epic skill DCs and epic spellcasting, which just annoys me. While I take Sep's point to heart, it's really irritating that pretty much the ONLY effective use of epic spells is to pump your casting stat into the 100s, and that use is really an ABuse.
I'm fond of the feats, the PrCs, the EAB and epic save rules, the monsters, and the epic class progressions. I've skipped over everything else, which means that I really could have done without buying the book and just used the relevant SRD sections. But I'm actually fond of the epic rules; they give me a starting tempate for 21+ level play that I'd never have wanted to generate on my lonesome.
I've just started a new game (the PCs are now 2nd level) and will be using the epic rules if the PCs ever rise that high. For now, "epic spells" provide a good catch-all for the ancient magical effects scattered around my campaign world, and a few of the NPCs are epic level, with correspondingly neat abilities. I've also dropped some of the (IMHO) weaker epic feats (Armor Skin, Legendary Rider) to feats with the [Legendary] descriptor; these feats can be taken by fighters and a few others with their class bonus feats (only).
Tried this when doing the initial conversions, and scrapped it when I realized that the barbarian/ranger's AB at 32nd level was twenty points higher than the rogue's. No good.Derulbaskul said:
No, largely because while I don't want the fighter-types to have vastly higher ABs than the second-rank fighters, I do want them to preserve a distinct combat advantage.
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RichGreen
Adventurer
Hi,
I'm running a 22nd level Epic game at the moment -- the characters were created so we could play Bastion of Broken Souls (18th level), and we carried on.
The basic rules in the ELH are fine, but there has been no epic spellcasting yet. We've used some of the monsters, a few magic items and a few feats. That's about it probably.
To me, Union is also Sigil-lite, and so I just used Sigil once the PCs got banned from the City of Greyhawk (too many inns trashed as their numerous enemies came after them).
The main thing about playing at this level is combat is incredibly complex due to the number of options available to everyone. I ran my 4th level game the other day and it made a very nice change!
Cheers
Richard
I'm running a 22nd level Epic game at the moment -- the characters were created so we could play Bastion of Broken Souls (18th level), and we carried on.
The basic rules in the ELH are fine, but there has been no epic spellcasting yet. We've used some of the monsters, a few magic items and a few feats. That's about it probably.
To me, Union is also Sigil-lite, and so I just used Sigil once the PCs got banned from the City of Greyhawk (too many inns trashed as their numerous enemies came after them).
The main thing about playing at this level is combat is incredibly complex due to the number of options available to everyone. I ran my 4th level game the other day and it made a very nice change!
Cheers
Richard
I didn't buy the Handbook due to negative publicity, but do have the SRD.
What I'd really like is Epic/Deity-level rules that really simplified play at this level, rather than making it ever-more-complex. AFAIK the old Immortals set for BXCMI D&D did this by mechanics that made regular spellcasting largely redundant.
Things I'd like to see:
1. A greatly simplified Feats system for (N)PC creation - Skills can be kept simple by having NPCs maxed out in their preferred skills, but Feats are a real pain, and dominate Epic 'builds'.
2. Simplified spells system; maybe Epic spontaneous spellcasters could use a Power Points 'energy battery' system, rather than slots? The current Epic system seems to rather nerf spellcasters, so it might be ok if this let them be a bit more powerful. Particularly suitable for divine beings IMO.
3. Discouraging one-upmanship battle-of-spells conflict resolution. Spell Resistance should probably be standard for beings at this level; they should be largely resistant to beings of a similar power-level, ie ca SR 20+Character Level. Maybe they have to actively maintain a 'Spell Shield', and drop it to cast spells (or Spell-like abilities) themselves - I think Immortals set used this? That would solve a lot of problems in the way D&D favours offense over defense so hugely.
4. Reduced reliance on items, other than one or two signature items, & on temporary buff spells. At this level I tend to feel all available enhancements should be 'built in' to the characters; relying on scads of +10 items just isn't Epic to me. Eg if the (N)PC has Natural Armour, let it be permanently Enhanced so they don't need to keep buffing with Barkskin spells & such before every fight. Let stat Enhancements be permanent so there's no need for Bull's Strength or Belts of Giant Strength (unless really Epic ones), etc.
5. Guidelines/Tables for typical NPCs at 21st-40th level like those in 3.0 DMG would be good, too (if Epic handbook doesn't have this, it should).
What I'd really like is Epic/Deity-level rules that really simplified play at this level, rather than making it ever-more-complex. AFAIK the old Immortals set for BXCMI D&D did this by mechanics that made regular spellcasting largely redundant.
Things I'd like to see:
1. A greatly simplified Feats system for (N)PC creation - Skills can be kept simple by having NPCs maxed out in their preferred skills, but Feats are a real pain, and dominate Epic 'builds'.
2. Simplified spells system; maybe Epic spontaneous spellcasters could use a Power Points 'energy battery' system, rather than slots? The current Epic system seems to rather nerf spellcasters, so it might be ok if this let them be a bit more powerful. Particularly suitable for divine beings IMO.
3. Discouraging one-upmanship battle-of-spells conflict resolution. Spell Resistance should probably be standard for beings at this level; they should be largely resistant to beings of a similar power-level, ie ca SR 20+Character Level. Maybe they have to actively maintain a 'Spell Shield', and drop it to cast spells (or Spell-like abilities) themselves - I think Immortals set used this? That would solve a lot of problems in the way D&D favours offense over defense so hugely.
4. Reduced reliance on items, other than one or two signature items, & on temporary buff spells. At this level I tend to feel all available enhancements should be 'built in' to the characters; relying on scads of +10 items just isn't Epic to me. Eg if the (N)PC has Natural Armour, let it be permanently Enhanced so they don't need to keep buffing with Barkskin spells & such before every fight. Let stat Enhancements be permanent so there's no need for Bull's Strength or Belts of Giant Strength (unless really Epic ones), etc.
5. Guidelines/Tables for typical NPCs at 21st-40th level like those in 3.0 DMG would be good, too (if Epic handbook doesn't have this, it should).
kitoy
Explorer
My players' characters were about ready to hit epic levels when the ELH came out and we made a relatively smooth transition into the ELH rules shortly after the book came out. Actually, at the time, my players had two sets of characters, a set from 2e and the characters we made when 3.0 first came out. Their 2e characters were in their mid-to-late-teens and the players decided that they wanted to convert he 2e characters to 3.0 and bring them to epic level.
I've used epic feats, epic magic items, epic spells and the epic monsters and they've all worked out pretty well for us. However, the prep time for the DM (me) went up as we got higher in levels and combat can take forever. Otherwise, it's been a really fun experience.
I've used epic feats, epic magic items, epic spells and the epic monsters and they've all worked out pretty well for us. However, the prep time for the DM (me) went up as we got higher in levels and combat can take forever. Otherwise, it's been a really fun experience.
Thanee
First Post
The only time I used it so far, was to introduce a really nasty opponent (a gloom) into our pre-epic campaign. The characters were close to 20th level and quite buff, and I stripped the gloom down a bit, so it wouldn't be overly ridiculous.
I mostly liked the concept behind the creature.
The arch-nemesis (a high level drow archmage) had made pacts (he also had some connection to the plane of shadows, which the PCs already found out) and aquired an amulet which allowed him to call a gloom and have it perform a service for him (he used it then to bodyguard himself, when the fight with the group was going downhill despite his best efforts to choose the terrain and circumstances).
Other than that, it just rests in a pile of other books.
Bye
Thanee
I mostly liked the concept behind the creature.
The arch-nemesis (a high level drow archmage) had made pacts (he also had some connection to the plane of shadows, which the PCs already found out) and aquired an amulet which allowed him to call a gloom and have it perform a service for him (he used it then to bodyguard himself, when the fight with the group was going downhill despite his best efforts to choose the terrain and circumstances).
Other than that, it just rests in a pile of other books.
Bye
Thanee
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