What are people doing with the epic handbook?

[sparxmith]

The Vault of the Ages

I'm starting an adventure Wednesday that I plan to take from 15th through 30th levels. Though I've not used the ELH yet, I've spent the past 2 months studying it for when the characters actually get to use it.

Overall, I think it is a very interesting book. I enjoy crafting NPC's that could theoretically annihilate the world. The monsters are extremely interesting, I'm using several as guardians in the aforementioned Vault of the Ages..

I'm using a slightly modified version of Epic spell casting. The whole point of the adventure the PC's are on is to find a Netherese tome of Magic that will teach them to cast spells as the Netherese did. Which, IMO, is epic level.

Also, I've house ruled Mordenkainen's Disjunction to be Epic. Its TOO powerful for non-epic level play.

All in all, I'm pleased with the ELH. If anybody want's to sell their copy cheap: drop me an email.

Just my 2 farthings,

Sparxmith

 

[The Gryphon]

Has anyone played characters past 20th level WITHOUT using the smoothed saving throw and BAB progressions? How did it work out?

Tried this when doing the initial conversions, and scrapped it when I realized that the barbarian/ranger's AB at 32nd level was twenty points higher than the rogue's. No good.

Ruleslawyer, how did you get to this huge gap? The BAB would only be +8 in favour of the barbarian/ranger at 32nd level if you continued the standard BAB progression, which is only 3 more than with the EAB. According to your experience the gap would have been seventeen points higher anyway even using the EAB.

I really think all progressions should have been continued at their pre-epic rate as monster hit dice work that way (and as monsters now progress EXACTLY the same as characters with regards to feats and skills this makes even more sense).

As for the 'Behind the Curtain' explanation on page 7 of the ELH about why they changed the attack and save bonuses, IMO this is just a smokescreen. The monster solution for number of attacks works just as well for character levels.

Covering Derulbaskul's other question, I don't see why any character shouldn't get their maximum of four attacks no matter when they reach +16 BAB, as it works that way for monsters if you advance their hit dice.

As an extension of the above topic the save rules are also suspect. By extending the base saves to 40th level the poor saves are only 3 less than the epic saves at the same point, these will of course fall out by an additional 3.33 points every 20 levels, but that's not all that much. Consider it takes approximately 40 levels above 20th to double the 6 point gap between good and poor saves at 20th level. I'm sure this shortfall could have been rectified with items and/or feats if it was deemed too large.

I'm also a bit ticked with spellcaster progressions stopping at 20th level. I whole heartedly agree with having to buy spell slots above 9th level, but keeping the 1st-9th level spells advancing. Increasing the power of the class by approximately the same amount as the base every 20 additional levels. I don't see an epic wizard or cleric with a few extra spell slots above 9th level and a few nifty abilities being all that epic. This also removes the requirement for EVERY class to get epic feats instead of what they used to get.

The pricing of epic items is also a big point with me...all of a sudden going from paying 200,000gp for a +5 sword (with +5 powers) to 2,420,000gp for a +6 sword (with +5 powers) is ludicrous especially considering treasure for EL 21+ has a slower progression that EL 20 or less. As if the characters finding someone capable of making these items for them or being forced to make them themselves isn't enough of a hurdle to getting epic items. You couldn't even buy the example epic sword in a Planar Metropolis, it would have to by necessity be custom made.

Don't get me wrong, I like the ELH, but I think instead of changing the system by which characters advance, produce magic items, etc. they could have offered better options based on the system deliniated in the three core books (i.e. just like all other books which expand options). The epic feats, epic prestige classes, item powers, epic spellcasting, and epic monsters are a good example of this direction, if not in all cases balanced or complete.

That's enough rant for now...as you might guess, I've been looking at ways to change this for my game

 

[The Gryphon]

Double Post :\

 

[Dragonblade]

I've used the Epic Level HB without any problems. The only thing I changed was I disallowed epic spells.

Everything else is fine.

I think the problem is people expected the epic level handbook to be something it is not, and the designers even partially expected it to be something its not.

For example, a lot of people run much more low powered games than the default D&D rules imply. However, the ELH is designed with the standard D&D power increase in mind. Since low power loving DMs don't even feel comfortable running D&D much past level 12, of course they are not going to find any use out of the epic level handbook.

Another thing is that some people seemed to expect it to have a more mythic feel. They wanted it to better simulate famous stories like the Odyssey. Even the designers tried to sort of push this feel when you read some sections of the ELH. The problem is the d20 system does not lend itself to this style of play. It is a system of numbers and tactics, not the abstract system that you would need for such games. As a result the feel doesn't work right. High level D&D is not mythic, it is superheroic (as in JLA or X-men). As a result the ELH rules only really work if you are willing to embrace the superheroic feel. Indeed, high level D&D in general, only works if you are willing to embrace this feel.

Also, going back to my first point about running low powered campaigns, the ELH also only works in a world built from the beginning with epic level play in mind. You cannot use the ELH in a world where the players are the only epic level characters. Period. The game breaks down.

Why? Because a world where the players are the only epic characters is not an epic world (in the D&D sense), it is a mythic world. And remember D&D rules do not handly mythic play well at all. There are no checks and balances to the PCs other than the occasional epic threat thrown in by the DM.

This point has always frustrated me because so few people understand what I'm trying to say. Even the WotC designers failed to make the distinction between epic play and mythic play. You cannot use D&D rules for mythic play over an extended period of time. The game breaks down. You can use D&D rules for epic play BUT the campaign world has to built for it from the beginning. This means that the PCs cannot be the only epic characters in the game.

For example, the best epic game I played in was SHARK's game. Unfortunately, he doesn't post here much anymore but his game was designed with epic level play in the from the very beginning. The average town guard in his world was anywhere from 10-20 level. Major NPCs were always epic level, and the BBEG was an 80th level ancient vampire lord. His world scaled perfectly from 1st level to epic level without a problem. It was also grim and gritty in addition to being epic, but that is attributable to his DMing style.

Unfortunately, a lot of DMs start their campaigns with the default NPC demographic level suggestions in the DMG. Or they want to have a grim and gritty feel and interpret that to equate low-level, even for major NPCs. They assume wrongly that they can always add ELH on later as an afterthought, if the campaign ever gets that high. This is a fatal mistake. And in my opinion, the single biggest reason why most people were unhappy with the epic level handbook. They expected a book of rules they can just tack on to their world and then keep playing their characters into epic levels without a problem.

Well, it doesn't work that way.

 

[kitoy]

Dragonblade, that's the best explanantion of how and why epic levels work that I've ever seen. It really makes me rethink my approach to epic.

 

[Derulbaskul]

Ruleslawyer,

Thanks for your feedback to my questions.

(snip) I really think all progressions should have been continued at their pre-epic rate as monster hit dice work that way (and as monsters now progress EXACTLY the same as characters with regards to feats and skills this makes even more sense).
(snip)
Covering Derulbaskul's other question, I don't see why any character shouldn't get their maximum of four attacks no matter when they reach +16 BAB, as it works that way for monsters if you advance their hit dice.

As an extension of the above topic the save rules are also suspect. By extending the base saves to 40th level the poor saves are only 3 less than the epic saves at the same point, these will of course fall out by an additional 3.33 points every 20 levels, but that's not all that much. Consider it takes approximately 40 levels above 20th to double the 6 point gap between good and poor saves at 20th level. I'm sure this shortfall could have been rectified with items and/or feats if it was deemed too large.
(snip)

Thanks, too, Gryphon for your comments.

I have two reasons for wanting to revisit the save and BAB advancements:

1. As Gryphon says, keeping the rules for characters consistent with the rules for monsters.
2. The logic behind the virtual homogenisation of saving throws bothers me because if the (BAB +1 per level) classes have their number of attacks preserved as a core advantage after 20th level, why can't the "good" save advantages of each class be similarly preserved?

OK, a third reason: my spreadsheeting skills are rather ordinary so factoring in the Epic advancements to my chargen spreadsheet would require both time and effort.

Dragonblade,

Yes, totally agree with your comments. Two of my campaigns are about to hit Epic levels and, fortunately, I expected this when they began a year ago so I have made sure that there are appropriate threats and balances in the world around them... which is rather easy when they're on their way to the Demonweb Pits....