What are the characteristics of a swashbuckler, in game terms?

[Dogbrain]

For the armor issue, I'd play a swashbuckler with, you know, a piercing longsword, which I'm probably naming wrong but which you can define as a moderately heavy blade designed with the primary purpose of punching through armor. That's what the rapier eventually devolved into as it became a gentleman's dueling weapon, but there was a period of time where the rapier was light enough to duel with but heavy enough to use against someone in armor.

1: "Tuck" or "Estoc". If you compare the cross-sections of estocs with the cross-sections of early rapiers, you will see that they are radically different.
2: No, rapiers are not derived from estocs. Truth be told, nobody is sure where rapiers came from, although a good candidate is the Italian spada di lata which was a somewhat narrow cut and thrust sword that was not well-optimized for piercing armor. However, the cross-section definitely says that it's closer to what would be identified by English-speakers as "rapiers".

 

[Dogbrain]

Let's see.

Good in combat.
Unarmored.
Acrobatic.

MONK!

 

[takyris]

1: "Tuck" or "Estoc". If you compare the cross-sections of estocs with the cross-sections of early rapiers, you will see that they are radically different.
2: No, rapiers are not derived from estocs. Truth be told, nobody is sure where rapiers came from, although a good candidate is the Italian spada di lata which was a somewhat narrow cut and thrust sword that was not well-optimized for piercing armor. However, the cross-section definitely says that it's closer to what would be identified by English-speakers as "rapiers".

Dang. Really? I was totally remembering that wrong.

Good thing we're playing in a system where a longsword is as good against plate-mail as a military pick, and chainmail protects just fine against hammers, huh?

 

[Spatula]

Well, I can only think of one of the top of my head, but the Red Viper versus the Mountain was not really swashbuckler versus tank, it was lightly-armored-tank-with-poisoned-reach-weapon versus super-tank. And the Viper didn't win, for that matter, although he was victorious*. In the case of Arya's fencing master versus the armored guards, both of which reinforce the argument that an unarmored or lightly armored fighter is at a disadvantage.

I think the third example is Tyrion's trail by combat in the Vale. IIRC Bron (? I think that's his name, it's been awhile) only has studded leather armor and a shield vs. a knight in full plate. Bron wins, BUT:
* It's my impression that Bron was the better fighter (i.e. higher level).
* Bron definitely fights smarter than the knight. He runs around avoiding the knight (Expertise and/or Fighting Defensively) until the knight tires out (not modeled in D&D), then pushes a statue on top of him. The knight expects a 'fair fight', Bron fights to win.
* Bron is by no means a swashbuckler. He'd be a fighter through-and-through in D&D terms. He wears studded leather at that point in the novels not by choice, but because he's poor.

 

[Spatula]

double post

 

[Storminator]

Random stuff...

<SNIP>

- Class abilities along the following lines: Improvised weaponry or cover abilities, encouragement in unorthodox tactics(*), class-based ability to sacrifice attacks in order to parry incoming blows (which I dislike as a feat or basic ability), ability to negate opponent's strength bonus to attacks (critical for a swashbuckler fighting giants/ogres)

<SNIP>

What if you added your foe's STR bonus to AC? That negates his to-hit advantage for high STR, but not his damage, and also prevents the ability from working against other swashbucklers (Weapon Finesse). Make it only work vs one foe per round, like dodge.

PS

 

[Spatula]

triple-post

 

[WizarDru]

I think the third example is Tyrion's trail by combat in the Vale. IIRC Bron (? I think that's his name, it's been awhile) only has studded leather armor and a shield vs. a knight in full plate. Bron wins, BUT:
* It's my impression that Bron was the better fighter (i.e. higher level).
* Bron definitely fights smarter than the knight. He runs around avoiding the knight (Expertise and/or Fighting Defensively) until the knight tires out (not modeled in D&D), then pushes a statue on top of him. The knight expects a 'fair fight', Bron fights to win.
* Bron is by no means a swashbuckler. He'd be a fighter through-and-through in D&D terms. He wears studded leather at that point in the novels not by choice, but because he's poor.

That would have been my guess, too. And I agree with your assessment, there, too. The knight was overconfident, lower-level and trying to adhere to an imagined code of conduct that Bron did not feel bound by.

 

[takyris]

I get the strangest feeling that Spatula has something to say about Tyrion's fight in the vale....

Storminator, I used it as a penalty to attacker's attacks on you, rather than a dodge bonus to your own defense, but it works out to the same thing. Basically, Unbalance Opponent (feat from d20 modern -- you choose one opponent per round, and they don't get Str bonus to-hit on attacks against you (but they DO get Str bonus to damage)) as a bonus feat.

In d20 Modern, it's not quite as cool as it sounds, because unless you're playing in a fantasy campaign, those Str bonuses don't get that high. In D&D, it'd be nice. Of course, when I brought up the feat as an independent idea several years ago, I pretty much got shouted down as a powergaming idiot.

 

[Storminator]

I get the strangest feeling that Spatula has something to say about Tyrion's fight in the vale....

Storminator, I used it as a penalty to attacker's attacks on you, rather than a dodge bonus to your own defense, but it works out to the same thing. Basically, Unbalance Opponent (feat from d20 modern -- you choose one opponent per round, and they don't get Str bonus to-hit on attacks against you (but they DO get Str bonus to damage)) as a bonus feat.

In d20 Modern, it's not quite as cool as it sounds, because unless you're playing in a fantasy campaign, those Str bonuses don't get that high. In D&D, it'd be nice. Of course, when I brought up the feat as an independent idea several years ago, I pretty much got shouted down as a powergaming idiot.

Oh.Well in that case...

You powergaming idiot! How dare you! What a ridiculous idea!

PS