What are the characteristics of an "olde school game"?

Quasqueton said:
I posit that there is no real "old school" style. It all comes down to "old school" means, simply, "How I played the game when I was 20-30 years younger, with less gaming and life experiences. How I understood, misunderstood, and interpreted the rules when first starting this hobby."

"Old school" is meaningless as a definitive and objective label.

Quasqueton
This is incorrect. There are multiple interpretations of old school, just like there are multiple play styles today. But several game elements can be identified which were characteristic of these styles but were de-emphasized or changed in later periods (sometimes to resurface; 3e did some of this). Not all of them are universal constants of old school, but some are definitely distinct enough to be considered common ground.

Old school is no more and no less objective/meaningless than other descriptive labels used today.
 

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This is not an attempt to start an edition war.


Old School, and What Do We Mean By That?

I think old-style, gritty Dungeons & Dragons can be boiled down in to a simple concept: expectation of survivability or mortality. The current version of D&D puts forth a set of abilities and skills that provide starting characters with heretofore unheard-of added abilities in combat and beyond (the entire "skill" system, for example), and options. In Advanced D&D (or Basic, or Original D&D) the assumption is, for example, when checking for a secret door that you have done all you can to find a secret door. Or likewise for a trap. Magic-users in AD&D have it even rougher - a true by-the-book adherent DM might not roll and give the neophyte mage the "long bomb" of 1st level magic-users, sleep! (You did know that as a DM you can dice for the spells your starting magic-users get, correct?)

Starting out with a 1st level party or character in prior versions of D&D is fraught with peril. Fighters with potentially fewer hit points than the magic-user. Thieves who are sketchy at best in terms of finding traps. Magic users who might be able to lay a swath of low-level monsters out - or maybe not. Clerics who can either make the whole party harder to hit and hope that no-one does get hit, or try to heal up one who is hit. Magic-users start with but a single spell. Average clerics have a single one, but if you're lucky you might get two or perhaps three additional chances to have a cure light wounds in the party.

Not so in 3rd edition. Fighters get many feats. Anyone of any stat spread can take special classes such as Paladin and gain the added bonuses for them as well. Maximum hit points are given to start. All of these abilities assume that even with slightly less than standard play a 3rd edition party of 1st level could plow through most 1e by the book encounters without batting an eye. Thus the challenge is removed, or lessened, from the outset.

Of course I've said before that there are "feats" in AD&D, but these special class abilities are rare: using the methods laid out in the Dungeon Masters Guide it isn't really all that easy to just "roll up" a paladin or ranger or monk, much less a dual-classed character who can change roles at will!

Nowhere in 3rd edition are there instant-kill anythings. Poisons cause a loss of CON - but leave the character alive. In a game where stats can be "bought" (and thus elevated into the for-1e-stratospheric high teens), is the loss of as little as a couple of points of CON any real threat? I say no.

Yes, in 3rd edition, the assumption is one of survival. "Well not in my game," you might say, but the rules of this current edition of D&D don't bear that out. A first edition AD&D character who survives by dint of luck, thoughtful gameplay, and tactics has survived. A 3rd edition character has an arsenal of powerful tools (that continue to grow in power) and his survival is merely expected at low level. Even at high level, AD&D characters can be slain. Consider the 10th level fighter who, on the average, has 50 hit points. Squaring off against a very old red dragon with a breath weapon, a missed saving throw (and at 10th level, our fighter is only avoiding half of that damage 55% of the time, which means that the worm might have to employ a 2nd blast) means death to our venerable fighter! And that fighter is doing the same amount of damage to that red dragon in return that he was doing at 6th level, 8th level or 9th level.

The expectation that the world at large is going to kill your character is the key difference: that death certain waits in the shadow of ancient forests, unexplored ruins, haunted castles and abandoned cities. There are not minor skills to ablate, there is no "take 20" - a deadfall is located, or it is not.

That is the answer, my friends. Mortality.
 

Quasqueton said:
It all comes down to "old school" means, simply, "How I played the game when I was 20-30 years younger, with less gaming and life experiences. How I understood, misunderstood, and interpreted the rules when first starting this hobby."

Quoted for truth.

However, this doesn't mean that there isn't a common core of Old School Gaming, because we were all misinterpreting the same rules. And we were all in school.
 

thedungeondelver said:
That is the answer, my friends. Mortality.

Although, by that definition, I knew lots of people who were playing new-school style even before Dragonlance.

But then, don't you almost have to recognize a minimum of three schools? Perhaps: Original through early 1e; late 1e through early 2e; & late 2e through 3e? I mean, sure, you can subdivide forever, but it's hard for me to divide the history of (A)D&D into only an old & new school.

Quasqueton said:
It all comes down to "old school" means, simply, "How I played the game when I was 20-30 years younger, with less gaming and life experiences. How I understood, misunderstood, and interpreted the rules when first starting this hobby."

Oddly enough, to me it's typically the opposite. It tends to be more about playing more the way it was intended rather than how I & my friends played it.

"Old school" is meaningless as a definitive and objective label.

I completely agree with this. But you could replace "old school" in that sentence with almost any other label & I'd still agree with it. (^_^) Language ain't perfect, but we manage to get by. I think I generally find "old school" more useful than "anime".
 

thedungeondelver said:
All of these abilities assume that even with slightly less than standard play a 3rd edition party of 1st level could plow through most 1e by the book encounters without batting an eye. Thus the challenge is removed, or lessened, from the outset.
No, the challenges are (or at least can/should be) also 'pumped up' in the same or comparable kinds of ways, generally.


Nowhere in 3rd edition are there instant-kill anythings.
Yes. Yes, there are.


Yes, in 3rd edition, the assumption is one of survival. "Well not in my game," you might say, but the rules of this current edition of D&D don't bear that out. A first edition AD&D character who survives by dint of luck, thoughtful gameplay, and tactics has survived. A 3rd edition character has an arsenal of powerful tools (that continue to grow in power) and his survival is merely expected at low level. Even at high level, AD&D characters can be slain. Consider the 10th level fighter who, on the average, has 50 hit points. Squaring off against a very old red dragon with a breath weapon, a missed saving throw (and at 10th level, our fighter is only avoiding half of that damage 55% of the time, which means that the worm might have to employ a 2nd blast) means death to our venerable fighter! And that fighter is doing the same amount of damage to that red dragon in return that he was doing at 6th level, 8th level or 9th level.
But monsters have more HP themselves, better this and that, and so on. Generally, I mean. So again, not really.


That is the answer, my friends. Mortality.
Nope. Not IME, from B/X through AD&D through 3.5, etc.
 

Doug McCrae said:
In many ways, 3rd ed is more old school than 2nd ed.

Yes.

And looking at Mythmere's list, I have plenty of old school stuff in my 3.5 game, but "new school" elements when I played past editions.
 

Mythmere1 said:
Essay Time!
To my mind, these are: (a) presentation in the rulebooks, meaning art and writing style -- the least important component

For me, this is most important. 1st ed had a real style and 3ed is definately lacking in this area. (2nd ed had bland core rules but some good stuff scattered in their various worlds, though nothing like a real "D&D" style).

And style does influance the gaming experience and the way people play.
 

thedungeondelver said:
That is the answer, my friends. Mortality.

For every person who agrees with this assessment you'll easily find another who thinks that "Old School" means deep character immersion and ecologically sound dungeons (or more likely, no dungeons at all).
 

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