What are the mechanics for disguising self as undead?

[Zaruthustran]

I've got a rogue character with a low Will save. To discourage opponents from targeting him with Will-save spells, I was thinking of having him disguise himself as a vampire.

What are the modifiers for such a use of the skill?

He has a Ring of Chameleon Power, which lets him cast Disguise Self whenever he wants. Combined with a +2 synergy bonus from a high bluff and a +2 from a masterwork disguise kit, this nets him a +14 to the skill check (no actual ranks in Disguise).

Modifiers:

Minor details only +5
Different race -2
Different gender -2
Different age category -2

He's the same race (wood elf), no change in gender or age. I figure all he needs is pale skin (same color, just a little pale), fangs, and red eyes, so does that count as "minor details only"?

Description of Disguise Self:

You make yourself—including clothing, armor, weapons, and equipment—look different. You can seem 1 foot shorter or taller, thin, fat, or in between. You cannot change your body type. Otherwise, the extent of the apparent change is up to you. You could add or obscure a minor feature or look like an entirely different person.

What does "you cannot change your body type" mean? Does that mean that he cannot use the spell to, say, disguise himself as a lizardman?

Help/comments appreciated. Thanks!

-z

 

[Hypersmurf]

He's the same race (wood elf)...

I would strongly argue that a templated X and a normal X are not the 'same race'.

Is a half-dragon orc the same race as an orc? Is an insectile dwarf the same race as a dwarf? Is a fiendish halfling the same race as a halfling?

I'd say "No", in all cases, just as I'd say "No" to a wood elf and a vampire wood elf.

-Hyp.

 

[lukelightning]

I'd say "different race."

I'd also include some way to factor in knowledge (religion); perhaps if you had 5 or more ranks in it I'd give you a bonus to your disguise, since knowledge (religion) covers what you know about undead.

And not everyone would be able to identify you as a vampire. "Oh, you're a pale guy with fangs... a shifter!"

 

[Zaruthustran]

I would strongly argue that a templated X and a normal X are not the 'same race'.

Is a half-dragon orc the same race as an orc? Is an insectile dwarf the same race as a dwarf? Is a fiendish halfling the same race as a halfling?

I'd say "No", in all cases, just as I'd say "No" to a wood elf and a vampire wood elf.

-Hyp.

So a ranger with Favored Enemy "orc" does not get his favored enemy bonus against half-orcs (regardless of whether the non-orc half is dragon or human)?

In reading the Vampire entry in the SRD, a number of creature qualities such as Type, Abilities, Environment, and Alignment are listed as being changed.

Race is a game term with a specific value. An insectile dwarf is indeed still a dwarf, and has stonecunning, a favored class of Fighter, weapon familiarity, etc. A fiendish halfling is still a halfling, and is still good at jumping and throwing rocks.

I must disagree with your conclusion but welcome further elaboration.

-z

 

[IcyCool]

So a ranger with Favored Enemy "orc" does not get his favored enemy bonus against half-orcs (regardless of whether the non-orc half is dragon or human)?

He does, because the Orc-Blooded rule for half orcs allows it.

In reading the Vampire entry in the SRD, a number of creature qualities such as Type, Abilities, Environment, and Alignment are listed as being changed. Race is not among them.

Type and subtype together are your race indicator. An undead is quite different than its base race. Just like a Humanoid (Dwarf) is a different critter than a Dragon (Dwarf).

 

[lukelightning]

Also, good luck removing your shadow and reflected image (or whatever strange traits vampires may have in different campaigns).

 

[Vegepygmy]

I've got a rogue character with a low Will save. To discourage opponents from targeting him with Will-save spells, I was thinking of having him disguise himself as a vampire.

What are the modifiers for such a use of the skill?

Well, first off, it's not clear that you can use the Disguise skill to disguise yourself as another Type of creature at all. The skill description certainly doesn't explicitly allow it, and the only modifiers listed are for another race/gender/age. (It would be pretty ridiculous to argue that a human disguising himself as an elf takes a -2 penalty on the check, but a human disguising himself as a rhinoceros takes no penalty or even just a -2 for being a different "race.")

So the first question is: will your DM even allow the skill to be used in this way?

Then you have the problem others have already mentioned: a lot of your opponents won't even recognize what you're disguising yourself as. Unless they have Knowledge (religion), for example, recognizing you as a vampire may be quite difficult. And even if they do, they won't necessarily realize that vampires are immune to mind-affecting spells, so they may still try to target you with them.

Personally, I'd allow you to try it, and assign a -2 penalty on top of the -2 for appearing as a different race. I wouldn't call any disguise that involves a different creature Type "minor details only," and I would give anyone with 5 ranks of Knowledge (religion) a +2 synergy bonus to Spot through the disguise.

But the answer to your original question is: this lies squarely in "DM's judgment"-land.

 

[Zaruthustran]

I get what you're saying with regards to Dragon (dwarf) being different from Humanoid (Dwarf), but if the race of a wood elf vampire is not wood elf, what is it? Vampire is not a race, and neither is undead (undead is a Type).

Then again, a skeletal wood elf--even though the race may still be wood elf--definitely looks very different than a living elf, and shouldn't be covered by Disguise Self.

And, as another person pointed out, there's no way around the shadow/reflection thing. Vampire is a poor choice for this trick.

Any other suggestions for Disguise subjects that would discourage casters from throwing Will-save spells his way?

-z

 

[pawsplay]

Vampires have a "feral" appearance. They are definitely a different race, and if they aren't, it amounts to the same thing anyway.

 

[werk]

I remember some ravenloft adventure that I played in ages ago. We were attacked by a group of villagers with fake fangs pretending to be vampires...some kinda of cult or something.

Needless to say, they should have pretended to be villagers
My dwarven fighter's intelligence was way too low to notice that he shouldn't be able to great cleave real vampires.