What are themes?

[Mummolus]

Does anyone else remember (and I may well get a reply with a url or a direct quote here; here's hoping), ooh, must be three years ago now, that Wizards were saying something about how race would be with you throughout your character's career? I mean, obviously, the character will always be the same race but they were talking about how the decision would have an effect beyond the cosmetic and the initial stats. I seem to recall something about racial powers that you could select in place of class powers, right through from 1st to 30th level.

Couldn't themes be used as a method of implementing that?

They've started implementing that in Heroes of Shadow - shades and vryloka both get racial powers they can select instead of utilities. That, too, was a step in the right direction, I think.

 

[Rechan]

I think they decided all the racial feats was good enough for that. We were also supposed to have builds that revolve around choice of weapon or shields and while the fighter has that sort of thing and we have feats I have felt that it wasn't what I was lead to believe.

Well, weapon choice is relevant to the fighter. The builds revolve around sword and board vs. two handed vs. brawler, etc.

Also at levels 3 and 13 encounter powers hinge off weapon choice.

Then there are the feats that were itnroduced in Martial Power 2 that hinge off weapons and present styles that modify at-wills, those hinge on weapons don't they?

As far as Race, there are the racial paragon paths in PHB2. But yes, I remember "race is relevant" and that hasn't been accomplished as much.

Thing about Themes (like backgrounds) is that everyone needs to use them, or no one needs to, because unless everyone picks one than some have more power than others.

 

[IanB]

Well, weapon choice is relevant to the fighter. The builds revolve around sword and board vs. two handed vs. brawler, etc.

Also at levels 3 and 13 encounter powers hinge off weapon choice.

Then there are the feats that were itnroduced in Martial Power 2 that hinge off weapons and present styles that modify at-wills, those hinge on weapons don't they?

As far as Race, there are the racial paragon paths in PHB2. But yes, I remember "race is relevant" and that hasn't been accomplished as much.

Thing about Themes (like backgrounds) is that everyone needs to use them, or no one needs to, because unless everyone picks one than some have more power than others.

The original talk was much more involved than 'use this weapon, get a rider', it was actually supposed to inform your stat choices, etc. I think they probably had something like that in placed, realized it was too complicated or led to to much MAD, etc., and pared it back to what we have now before release.

 

[DEFCON 1]

The original talk was much more involved than 'use this weapon, get a rider', it was actually supposed to inform your stat choices, etc. I think they probably had something like that in placed, realized it was too complicated or led to to much MAD, etc., and pared it back to what we have now before release.

Personally if/when 5E gets worked on, I wish they'd go in the direction of treating the weapon groups for the fighter the same way domains are for the cleric and schools are for the wizard. Each weapon group should have its own set of bonuses and stats that run like domains/schools do.

Heck, I think the entire class in the Martial power source should work via weapon group, just like all the classes in the Divine source should be based off of domain, and the Arcane classes based off school. Basically a Theme type of thing. So every paladin, cleric, avenger & invoker of Erathis for example should have a unified set of domain abilities on top of their normal class function and prayers.

 

[The Little Raven]

The original talk was much more involved than 'use this weapon, get a rider', it was actually supposed to inform your stat choices, etc. I think they probably had something like that in placed, realized it was too complicated or led to to much MAD, etc., and pared it back to what we have now before release.

Unless there is a Dragon article from issues 360-363 (359 and earlier were still Paizo) that I can't find, the pre-release source we have for weapons changing fighting style is Races and Classes.

Fighters pay more attention to questions of personal armament than other characters. Your first decision is whether you will use a weapon and shield, or instead wield a bigger, two-handed weapon. A shield offers outstanding defense, and a shielded fighter is a difficult foe to bring down. On the other hand, choosing a large, powerful weapon such as a greataxe or a greatsword allows you to deal superior damage in melee. Sometimes the best way to prevent damage is to quickly kill the creature that poses the threat; as they say, the best defense is a good offense.

Once you have decided on your chosen fighting style (shield or two-handed), you should study feats and powers that compliment your style. The distinctive combination of tricks, stunts, maneuvers, feats, or exploits you acquire during your career mark you as different from every other fighter out there. Most fighters fall into one of three schools of thought: assault, defense, or control. Assault is best for you if you prefer a big, two-handed weapon. You learn powers and select feats that emphasize offense and dealing damage. Defense is best if you are agile and make use of a shield; powers and feats that improve your Armor Class can make you almost impossible to overwhelm with physical attack. Finally, control is a subtle but powerful strategy; you study powers and choose feats that improve your ability to hinder and constrain your enemies’ movement.

Weapons are the tools of your trade, and like any good craftsman, you should be careful to use the right one for the right job. Most of your weapon stunts require you to use a specific weapon. For example, hammers and maces are good for stunts that will stun your foes or knock them back, but big, heavy blades such as the greatsword or greataxe are excellent for big, sweeping blows that threaten all enemies nearby. Other characters are content to wear a single preferred blade at their side, but you’re a walking arsenal more often than not. Keep a variety of weapons on or about your person, just in case.

And that sounds like exactly what we got.

 

[DNH]

... it wasn't what I was lead to believe.

There is, unfortunately, all too much about 4e that has turned out to be not what we were led to believe three years ago. Or since.

 

[DNH]

"race is relevant"

Succinctly put.

 

[WalterKovacs]

The original talk was much more involved than 'use this weapon, get a rider', it was actually supposed to inform your stat choices, etc. I think they probably had something like that in placed, realized it was too complicated or led to to much MAD, etc., and pared it back to what we have now before release.

It was partially implemented, similar to the concept of race matering. The prerequisites on the various weapon feats (and the actual benefits of those feats) did sort of point to themes for weapon choices. Con was tied to axes and hammers, dex to light and heavy blades and flails, wisdom to spears and polearms, etc ... With Essentials they did try to give most of the martial classes that kind of weapon choice with effects on class features, etc.

The problem is that it's subtle and spread out. Hammers have feats, some paragon paths, some fighter powers, some 'exclusive' enchantments, etc ... It was just that, it's quite easy for a character to ignore all those things and just focus on other things ... grab an "any weapon" enchantment, take a superior weapon and just generic all purpose feats like expertise, focus, class/race specific stuff, etc ... At least now the expertise feats sort of give a small ammount of weapon "specializing" and for some of the E martial classes, they are basically the "build choice", with them being tied to a number to class features.

 

[IanB]

Unless there is a Dragon article from issues 360-363 (359 and earlier were still Paizo) that I can't find, the pre-release source we have for weapons changing fighting style is Races and Classes.



And that sounds like exactly what we got.

I don't have the source handy but they definitely talked about a more complicated system either before Races and Classes or elsewhere in that book. Unfortunately EN World is about the only gaming-related site that isn't blocked for me at work, so I'm having a hard time tracking down the original thing I am thinking of.

 

[The Little Raven]

Does anyone else remember (and I may well get a reply with a url or a direct quote here; here's hoping), ooh, must be three years ago now, that Wizards were saying something about how race would be with you throughout your character's career? I mean, obviously, the character will always be the same race but they were talking about how the decision would have an effect beyond the cosmetic and the initial stats. I seem to recall something about racial powers that you could select in place of class powers, right through from 1st to 30th level.

This is a prime example of why sharing info on an in-development project causes heartbreak for fans: they take proposed design features (which may get cut or changed during development) as promises or hype promised features into what they want, rather than what was actually promised.

We decided very early in the process that we wanted character race to play a more important part in describing your character. In earlier editions, your character’s race was something that you chose at a single decision point during character creation. Your race pick bestowed a whole collection of static, unchanging benefits at 1st level (many of which were useless clutter on your character sheet), and never really “grew” with your character. A 20th-level dwarf had the exact same amount of racial characteristics as a 1st-level dwarf—and during the nineteen intervening levels, the overall importance of that long-ago race selection had diminished to a tiny portion of the character concept.

That led directly to the first philosophical shift in the way we look at races: Rather than consider a race a simple package of ability modifiers and special abilities you choose at 1st level, we decided to include higher-level feats that you can choose for your character at the appropriate time. For example, dwarves are extraordinarily resilient, so they gain the ability to use their second wind [a healing ability] one more time per encounter than other characters can. Eladrins gain the ability to step through the Feywild to make a short-range teleport. You might remember that races such as githyanki or drow gained access to unique powers when they reached certain levels; this is an extension of the same principle.

One idea we borrowed from the FORGOTTEN REALMS and EBERRON Campaign Settings was racial feats—a collection of special tactics, resistances, or edges keyed to each race. So, not only can a dwarf choose from all the general feats in the game, he or she can also choose dwarf-only feats. These remain available throughout a character’s career, so they help race to remain relevant even for high-level characters.

That's from December 2007 and it only mentions racial feats. I can't find any source that is more recent than that which promises more than just racial feats, just like I cannot find any more recent source than R&C which promises weapon styles different from what we got in the PHB.