What Are You 12?

[DonTadow]

Okay, we're going to take this in several pieces.

1. Please state where WotC has manipulated reviews.

2. How precisely do you know the financial details of EN World? What do you consider a large chunk of revenue? And how much money do you think I have earned from EN World advertising here? (Here's a hint: none. We're volunteers, with no horse in this race.)

3. If you have a problem with moderation, the site rules specify that you email a moderator about it. You do not make accusatory, passive aggressive posts. Please do so in the future.

4. You must be confused if you think that I'm personally in favor of WotC's actions regarding pdf sales. I don't think you've been reading these threads if you think I am. But professionally, as a moderator, my job is to stop people from being rude and disruptive here at EN World - and that's true whichever side of the issue their opinion falls on.

You've managed to be extraordinarily offensive, frankly. I'm a little surprised and amused that you see me asking for proof on an unsupported statement as bias.

Not getting into it with you today PC, I have nothing against the moderation by you or anyone else. I have a problem with both moderating and commenting. It just feels like a strong biased when someone in an official capacity both moderates and comments. But hey if that's what you want to do its your boat i'm just a passenger.

Back to the topic at hand, I know of manilpulated reviews that is incentives to reviewers (both punitive and rewarding) if they issue positive reviews in blogs and review sites, and if I ever get supoened I'd be glad to devulge my sources. Take that however you like. But I don't just spit lies for the sake of insighting people to riot.

2. I do not know of Enworlds financial data, but I don't think that hundreds (maybe thousands by now) of dollars in banner ads and primier ad placement for WOTC and Enworld Publishing products is a small drop in the bucket for a hobby website. But hey, if it is I'm wrong. The placement of the forum topics is also quite clear that the priority (as far as listng is 4e) even listing higher than a general dungeons and dragons forum. It can't be a surprise to anyone that Enworld has grown a reputation of late as a 4e website.

Why is that seen as a bad thing?

 

[I'm A Banana]

WotC is twelve years old? Well, that explains dragonbewbs.

"T&A on EVERYTHING! AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA!"....

Seriously, most people have already well addressed your points as mostly reasonable, if a bit reactionary. WotC isn't doing anything here that I feel the need to criticize at all.

WRT this forum, I don't think ENWorld is a 4e website at all. I think it is primarily a D&D website, and since D&D is currently in it's fourth edition, that edition gets discussed a lot. Still, the split is fairly good, and there's no silencing of any opinions going on here.

 

[Nightson]

On the issue of number one.

It's entirely possible for people to read an idea, reject it and then months later 'come up with it' as their own idea. Not out of any dishonesty, but simply because memory is a very fallible thing.

 

[Glyfair]

3) Any post that is anti-WotC and even slightly controversial on the WotC forums is locked down, often within a matter of hours. Free speech is practically denied if anything negative is said about WotC.

As others have said, not true. I even rarely go to the General Discussion forum because most of the threads are "edition war" and worse levels. I am tired of hearing why you don't like "X edition." I'd rather see some discussion about things that will add to my game (which is why I spend a lot of time here).

4) WotC seems to be threatening a lot of web sites with lawsuits if anyone creates anything useful as a 4E tool. I have a few web sites in my favorites list that no longer exist or have their useful tools available.

Strange, I am the opposite. What sites are missing?

As for "useful" 4E tool, here is one of my favorites. Still there.

 

[Darrin Drader]

1) A friend of mine created a submission to WotC and was denied. A few years later, WotC released a series of books with the major artifact from his submission with not only the same ability, but with the exact same name (and the name is the title of the book).

Honestly, this doesn't jive with my firsthand experience with WotC. Early on, I sent a piece to someone who worked in R&D at the time, telling him to feel free to use it. It was used, I wasn't credited, but it was accidental. When I brought this up, not only did they make an immediate correction in the following two issues of Dragon, but they went the extra mile by offering to specifically write some articles, if I was interested. I was, and as it turns out, that became one of my first freelancing successes.

I'm not saying that I disbelieve you or your friend, but it is true that there are a number of concepts that are intuitive logical areas to explore and are developed by a number of different parties. If your friend feels slighted, he or she should take it up with WotC. I don't agree with everything they've been up to lately, but they are not thieves.

3) Any post that is anti-WotC and even slightly controversial on the WotC forums is locked down, often within a matter of hours. Free speech is practically denied if anything negative is said about WotC.

Free speech is not a guarantee on someone else's boards. For instance, one person I thought I knew somewhat well started posting a bunch of hate speech regarding a certain ethnic group on my Facebook wall. I first removed the posts, then when he didn't knock it off, I unfriended him. Bottom line is that if it's your forum, you make the rules.

4) WotC seems to be threatening a lot of web sites with lawsuits if anyone creates anything useful as a 4E tool. I have a few web sites in my favorites list that no longer exist or have their useful tools available.

This is one of the areas where I am critical of them. Fans put things like this up because it is immediately useful to them. Restraining creativity in this way is a little too much like Lorraine Williams' administration at TSR.

Maybe I'm just an old grognard, but I am seeing quite a few things that make me go: hmmmm.

Me too, but it helps to separate the reasonable concerns from tinfoil hat level stuff.

 

[Raven Crowking]

To be completely fair, I have to say that WotC has been very cool about letting my articles use some non-OGC material in Dragon Roots as well. Once they realize that everyone isn't really going to abandon 4e for RCFG, everything will be fine.

RC

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Regarding point #2, about the podcasts, and I'm sure it's the Penny Arcade/PvP podcasts that are being pointed out, I have to say I disagree. Those podcasts are, as others have mentioned, specifically labeled as having coarse language. In addition, as others have mentioned, some of the players are pencil & paper RPG novices. Neither of these things are detrimental to D&D.

If one knows who the players are, and there a lot of such people (including me, and I am well over 35), hearing these guys play is a blast. This is especially true of novices like Mike Krahulik/Gabe of Penny Arcade, who had previously been teasingly (though bitingly) disdainful of tabletop RPG's and their players. He is now posting regularly on the Penny Arcade site about his complete conversion to not only being a fan of D&D and a player, but is actually rhapsodizing about being a DM! It's great publicity for D&D, and adds a new, fun element to Penny Arcade.

Those podcasts are not intended for children. This makes sense, since D&D should not be marketed solely to children, either - there are a lot of adults playing who enjoy hearing their contemporaries play a great session, and don't mind - and often use - salty language themselves. If such language offends you, I suggest heeding the prominent warnings (also included on iTunes) about language that are posted for those podcasts.

 

[CharlesRyan]

Most of these points have been covered to death, so just put me down as a "me too!" on the majority view.

I do have something to add on point 1, though. I've worked in R&D at four different RPG companies, including WotC. This isn't the first time I've heard someone claim that ideas have been stolen (or worry that they might be). But here's the scoop:

1. We all like to think we're geniuses, but the truth is good ideas are a dime a dozen. And many good ideas are thought of dozens of times by dozens of different people. And, especially if they're inspired by a particular source, these dozens of versions are often remarkably similar.
2. The main issue faced by most R&D departments isn't a lack of sufficient ideas. It's a surfeit--how do you decide which great ideas actually make it to print? Nobody at any R&D department is sitting around saying "gosh, if only I had a good idea . . . ." Usually, they're saying "we have twenty really cool options, but only room for three . . . ."
3. Most companies that receive ideas worthy of use are happy to pay for them. WotC pays freelancers all the time. Why on earth would they deviate from such a well-established policy in this particular case?

So this idea is was so fundamentally awesome that WotC had to have it--in fact, they had to name a book after it? (But it was also so incredibly unique that they couldn't have thought of it themselves.) But rather than simply paying a few hundred bucks, they go through a convoluted process of writing a denial letter, tucking the idea away, and then carefully, secretly hording it for later?

Seriously, who's the 12-year-old in this scenario?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I have been noticing a trend with WotC that I find somewhat bothersome.

It's as if the company is being run by young teenagers.

Some examples:

1) A friend of mine created a submission to WotC and was denied. A few years later, WotC released a series of books with the major artifact from his submission with not only the same ability, but with the exact same name (and the name is the title of the book).

I don't believe this, unless this has gone to court and WotC has been found guilty.

It is not that uncommon for people to come up with similar names and similar abilities. I remember that our webmaster for our private site was contacted to remove a class called "Rage Mage" because it had appeared in Dragon (it was not WotC that asked of that, it was the German distributor, Amigo, at that time.). Since I wrote the class myself, I am pretty sure I wasn't copied and I didn'Ät copy it. "Rage Mage" is just a very obvious name, espeically if you mix Barbarian and Sorcerer class.

2) The podcasts on WotC web sites are full of foul mouth expletives that I as a business owner would never have associated with my company. And half of the players on the podcasts appear to not know the rules at all.

It's a real game with real people. Real people make mistakes when playing the game. The podcast exemplifies that you can still have fun even if you're sometimes a little over your head with the rules and don't know everything.
Are they supposed to bleep it out the expletives or what?
Maybe it's because I am not a German, but using foul mouth expletives isn't all that terrible to me. They warn you, and that's it. There are quite a few TV stations even in the US that will allow such "foul language". HBO or other stations come to mind.

3) Any post that is anti-WotC and even slightly controversial on the WotC forums is locked down, often within a matter of hours. Free speech is practically denied if anything negative is said about WotC.

Standard business practice in forums hosted by the owner of an IP/Brand/Trademark/whatever. Especially if controversial means that people sling mud at each other and call the company or consumers names.
People shouldn't feel insulted or attacked when dealing with a company, and that's ultimiately what you do - even if just by association - when you're on their forum.

4) WotC seems to be threatening a lot of web sites with lawsuits if anyone creates anything useful as a 4E tool. I have a few web sites in my favorites list that no longer exist or have their useful tools available.

When they are doing it against various laws and regulations, that is to be expected. WotC has to protect their business and trademark. They are not just in it for the fun of the game, they also need to make money, so they can keep making stuff for the fun of the game.

 

[Maggan]

So this idea is was so fundamentally awesome that WotC had to have it--in fact, they had to name a book after it?

So, any guesses to what book it might be?

Book of Vile Darkness? Book of Exalted Deeds? Are there any other books named after major artifacts?

/M