D&D 5E What are your biggest immersion breakers, rules wise?

iserith · Oct 10, 2019

Charlaquin said:
I actually ask my players to say if they are trying to knock out, rather than kill the target, when they declare the action. Actions require both a goal and an approach (at my table), and “knock the orc out” is a goal.

Same, though I'm generally amenable to them saying so after the fact.

lowkey13 · Oct 10, 2019

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Charlaquin · Oct 10, 2019

Saelorn said:
I don't want to come up with a plausible explanation, though. That's entirely the wrong mindset for role-playing. If I'm going to pretend that I'm actually my character, in a world that could believably exist, then the true explanation must exist without regards to my speculation. My belief can't cause something to be true.

Your belief can’t cause something to be true, but it also can’t cause something not to be true. when a thing happens in the game, it is true in the fiction whether you believe it or not. If you refuse to come up with or accept any explanations of how it could be true, that’s on you.

Saelorn said:
If there's a continuity error in one of those old comics, then the true explanation is that the writer messed up. Shifting the burden to the reader does not change that fact, and it does nothing to prevent similar errors from happening in the future. Writers (and game designers) should be held accountable for their mistakes.

Obviously the reason is that the writer made a mistake. And yet, it’s canon. It happened. Come up with an explanation, or be dissatisfied, the choice is yours. Personally, I don’t really enjoy being dissatisfied.

lowkey13 · Oct 10, 2019

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iserith · Oct 10, 2019

lowkey13 said:
Where I think you're not understanding what I am saying is that in TTRPGs or in fiction, there can be things that are intrinsic to the material that, usually for idiosyncratic reasons, break someone out of the fiction / immersion, and that's NOT part of the initial buy-in.

For example, let's say someone goes to see a science fiction movie. Now, maybe there are numerous things that they accept that don't bother them, for whatever reason (like, oh, sounds in space to start with because space battles are cool). But then there's one scene where something happens and suddenly, for that person, the suspension of disbelief is lifted. That person "bought in" but there was something intrinsic that broke them out of it.

And you know, if this has happened to you, that you just don't ... re-immerse yourself. Sure, it doesn't mean that you storm out of the theater (or quit the TTRPG), but you also can't say, "Look, it's all just fiction, man. Get over it. Suck it up, buttercup."

If I was that person, I would continue to set myself to working on my ability to ignore such distractions and maintain immersion. I would indeed be the buttercup that sucked it up. Because I know it's possible if I try. What I see a lot of is people not wanting to put forth the effort. And that's fine, but let's not suggest it's impossible.

iserith · Oct 10, 2019

lowkey13 said:
EDIT. I'm not trying to be too harsh, but this is saying, "Hey, that thing that doesn't work for you? Instead of changing it, or choosing a system that works better for you, how about you berate yourself not being able to more effectively lie to yourself? The problem isn't the rules, it's YOU."

As I said upthread, one can change the channel, change the rules, or change oneself. There's not a single solution, but one of those approaches actually pays dividends beyond D&D.

iserith · Oct 10, 2019

Charlaquin said:
Your belief can’t cause something to be true, but it also can’t cause something not to be true. when a thing happens in the game, it is true in the fiction whether you believe it or not. If you refuse to come up with or accept any explanations of how it could be true, that’s on you.

Totally agree. When you point your finger at someone or something else, three fingers are pointing back at you.

Charlaquin · Oct 10, 2019

lowkey13 said:
I understand. But that's not what we are really talking about here. I was hoping that the post prior to this made it clear.

Look, if someone is saying, "I can't stand hit points. They are breaking my immersion!" Then maybe that is right. Or maybe, they are complaining about something (as people tend to do on the internet) that they can, in fact, deal with and/or house rule around pretty easily. It's the nature of the game.

That's why I made the analogy to suspension of disbelief and fiction. Of course all fiction (books, movies) requires the suspension of disbelief. That the "buy in" that you "volunteer" when you engage with it. If someone says, "I don't like Buffy the Vampire Slayer" because "vampires aren't real," then, well, I mean, okay. They never engaged in the buy in, yada yada yada.

Where I think you're not understanding what I am saying is that in TTRPGs or in fiction, there can be things that are intrinsic to the material that, usually for idiosyncratic reasons, break someone out of the fiction / immersion, and that's NOT part of the initial buy-in.

For example, let's say someone goes to see a science fiction movie. Now, maybe there are numerous things that they accept that don't bother them, for whatever reason (like, oh, sounds in space to start with because space battles are cool). But then there's one scene where something happens and suddenly, for that person, the suspension of disbelief is lifted. That person "bought in" but there was something intrinsic that broke them out of it.

And you know, if this has happened to you, that you just don't ... re-immerse yourself. Sure, it doesn't mean that you storm out of the theater (or quit the TTRPG), but you also can't say, "Look, it's all just fiction, man. Get over it. Suck it up, buttercup."

Or, an alternative: the person could accept that this thing is true in the fiction, and think up a reason why it is true. Did you know that in the Star Wars universe, fighter ships actually create sound-effects to help their pilots intuit their surroundings more naturally, and we as an audience are hearing what the characters are hearing? At least, according to one of the novelizations of... I think New Hope? One of the original trilogy, anyway. Coming up with these sorts of explanations is a highly beneficial mental exercise that stimulates creativity, and enhances our fictional worlds to boot.

lowkey13 said:
Because that's not correct, either. If nothing else, it is the reverse of the "All opinions are personal, so stop questioning me about my preferences" statement. It's the nihilist argument, "It's just a game, so nothing matters. Nothing is ever going to be realistic or not realistic, or whatever. No one cares about immersion."

I mean, no one should care about immersion. It’s a meaningless buzzword, and it’s not really necessary to the enjoyment of an RPG. If you find yourself saying, “wait, that doesn’t make any sense!” try thinking of an explanation that does make sense. It’s good for your brain, it’s easier than coming up with house-rules to “fix” all the things that “don’t make sense,” and it makes the game more enjoyable.