What books describe a good magical world?

Celebrim - I really enjoyed the Hallowed Hunt, although the culture was different enough that it did take more effort to get inside the characters heads I'll grant you. As for the cheapening of the Gods in Paladin of Souls I think that has far more to do with Ista's view/relationship to the God's vs Cazarils.

Lawrence Watt-Evans Esthshar novels are a very high magic world with several distinct magical traditions. The Night of Madness in particular is a wonderful exploration of magics relationship to the world and the reasons behind magical guilds.

Terry Pratchetts Diskworld books are, of course, rediculously high magic, and some of them actually explore it in interesting ways. A hat full of sky the sequel to The wee free men in particular.
 

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I have only seen the movie, but judging by Wikipedia and my knowlage of the movie, the book Howl's Moving Castle is a nice blend of "real" and fantasy.

Can anybody who has read this give me their opinion on it?
 

Scrollreader said:
The problem I think he had with your example, is that it /is/ a variant. Sure, lots of DMs can run magic that way. But use the DMGs rules for statting up a decent sized city, sometime. There /are/ people who can cast raise dead. So why should merchant princes fear death? Why should death worry me, when I can pay to come back from it?

Well, in the case of Raise Dead, you should fear death because if you don't get raised within a week, you can't be. So if you're body isn't found, you're dead. Also, if you're killed by a death effect, you're dead. If they take you're head, you're dead. Raise Dead is an insurance, not a guarantee.

Resurrection will, but 13th level casters are few and far between (only in the largest cities, IIRR), and still, if you aren't resurrected within a year or so, chances are you won't ever be.
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As far as books go, I'd recommend the Golden Age series, by John Charles Wright. It's SFI, and deals with technological immortality. You can also couch the plot in terms of Law and Chaos, if you're so inclined (and willing to stretch things a bit).
 

RyukenAngel said:
I have only seen the movie, but judging by Wikipedia and my knowlage of the movie, the book Howl's Moving Castle is a nice blend of "real" and fantasy.

Can anybody who has read this give me their opinion on it?

The movie is kind of a mix between Howl's Moving Castle and Castle in the Air by Dianne Wynn Jones. The action is mostly from the first book but it draws themantically and some plot elements are from the second. It's definitly worth reading the books, there's a lot going on in the movie that you don't really see properly until you read the books. One of the major themes of the first book btw is about standard fantasy tropes and how characters in a fantasy world deal with them.
 

Andor said:
Celebrim - I really enjoyed the Hallowed Hunt, although the culture was different enough that it did take more effort to get inside the characters heads I'll grant you. As for the cheapening of the Gods in Paladin of Souls I think that has far more to do with Ista's view/relationship to the God's vs Cazarils.

No, it isn't that. Neither protagonist is pleased to be used so by the Gods, particularly initially.

No, I'm specifically referring to the subject of the heresy concerning The Bastard. I find that I would be a heretic in Chalion, because I could (if I had no alternative) worship a deity that was not omnipotent. The heretics believe that the Father and the Mother are not omnipotent, a belief reasonably justified by the way the Quintary interacts with the world. However, like the heretics, I can't worship a diety whose conduct is not worthy and emmulatable. The notion that the Bastard was born not through an act of world birthing cosmological violence, but rather through the cockolding of the Father and the lusts of The Mother renders the Quintary just another common paganism. It diminishes the deities. It reduces the conception of the dieties down to the merely superhuman, possessing the foibles, flaws, and character of mortals but simply greater power and authority. That's a pretty common conception because its easy to understand and identify with, and its common enough to be rather uninteresting to me. Prior to 'Curse of Chalion' I had associated anti-paganism pretty much exclusively with monotheism (and to a certain extent, some of the more philosophical branches of Hinduism). But so far as I had ever encountered, no author had ever set out to create an original anti-pagan polytheistic cosmology, and I saw some of the developments of 'Paladin of Souls' as undermining that conception. Which leads me to believe that the things that originally interested me about the religion were in large part accidental.

Now of course, its certainly possible that the heretics are right and the Chalion orthodoxy is incorrect, but I don't think the author was being that subtle and it seems pretty obvious which side of the debate Bujold was coming down on.
 
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Tenbones said:
Authorial intent... which is what?
It's the magic force that allows books to be written.

Obviously. I think some of the responses to my post are over-analyzing what I'm getting at.
Maybe. My point is pretty simple: real-world concerns trump fictional-world concerns. Function over form. "Magic" in literature usually serves the needs of the plot, with everything else being rationalization. Similarly, magic in an FRPG serves the game design, not the goal of creating a thorough simulation of some elf-riddled fantasy planet.
 

Tenbones said:
You're talking a specific period in the Riftwar.
I was quoting a statistic dropped by one of Kelewan's Great Ones.* 1/1,000,000 was the "natural" rate of wizards being born among the population. Hardly the 1/1,000 that the 3.x DMG assumes. And in D&D you get sorcerers, druids and spell-casting Clerics too. If you multiply the number of magic-users by 3,000, you're going to get a society that looks really, really different than Midkemia or even the Empire of the Tsurani.

Hmm. To get back to the OP's request, I'm really having a hard time here. The main problem is that even in fantasy kingdoms or cities where magic is commonplace (such Kelewan's City of the Great Ones or Wheel of Time's Age of Legends or Valdemar's pre-Mage War Empires), the boundary between life and death is rarely within the power of even the greatest wizards. D&D is somewhat of an anomaly is that respect. Teleportation and telepathy become commonplace way more often than Raise Dead type magic.

I don't know. I think the whole problem is over-stated. Just spend 15-30 minutes one lazy afternoon and ask yourself "If I had a 50% chance of 'surviving' an assassination, how would that change my behavior?" Frankly, I don't think it would change my behavior much at all, other than the fact that my Last Will & Testament wouldn't kick in until all revival options were exhausted. That chance of death (the chance that my killer takes my heart/head with him, or uses a dagger blessed by the Raven Queen, or hides my body under a bush until the time limit for RD is exhausted, or that the spell just doesn't work, etc.) is too high to be nonchalant about it. And the cost is hardly de minimus, even to a King.

And that doesn't even get to the question of "If I die, will my heirs respect my wishes about being raised, or leave me dead so they can inherit?" I mean, I bet lots of Kings get offed and the few loyal retainers get offed too to make sure that, even if it's possible to raise him, no one does.

Plus, there's cool plot-lines like "The King died mysteriously, and his nephew ascended the throne and took power, but the King's loyal man Kerced carried the King's body away in the night. Now a rebellion is brewing in the East and it is rumored that King Alfred has returned from the Shadowfell, determined to retake his throne." Isn't that cool?

Or, some street tough might warn you "Don't cross the Nighthawks. Many have tried, but their leaders have all signed pacts with dark powers. They've been killed a half-dozen times, but they keep coming back to retake their 'rightful' place as the rulers of The City's underbelly. And when they do, their killers don't survive - and their bodies are never found to be raised. Even the Prince is afraid of them, as well he should be. And so should you." Even if it isn't true, it could be true, and that's all that counts when reputation is on the line.

Man, I could write stuff like this all day.



*A side-effect of having read those books close to a dozen times each is that I really, really know way too much about Midkemia.
 

Lawrence Watt-Evans various Ethshar books have a fairly high level of magic; it's a known and accepted profession. People go to mages for potions, luxery goods, etc.
 

Irda Ranger said:
Plus, there's cool plot-lines like "The King died mysteriously, and his nephew ascended the throne and took power, but the King's loyal man Kerced carried the King's body away in the night. Now a rebellion is brewing in the East and it is rumored that King Alfred has returned from the Shadowfell, determined to retake his throne." Isn't that cool?

Or, some street tough might warn you "Don't cross the Nighthawks. Many have tried, but their leaders have all signed pacts with dark powers. They've been killed a half-dozen times, but they keep coming back to retake their 'rightful' place as the rulers of The City's underbelly. And when they do, their killers don't survive - and their bodies are never found to be raised. Even the Prince is afraid of them, as well he should be. And so should you." Even if it isn't true, it could be true, and that's all that counts when reputation is on the line.

Well done, particularly with the former.

Though, as an aside, I think those are more interesting if resurrection is rarer than D&D commonly assumes.
 

Irda Ranger said:
I'm surprised no one has mentioned The Wheel of Time yet. As the series progressed it only became more high fantasy.
It's high magic, sure - there's lots of lightning and such being thrown around, and the use of magic is common among the main characters. But if you look closely, it doesn't really have much in the way of what's normally considered "game-breaking" in D&D.

There's no mind reading. Sure, there's Compulsion, but that requires defeating your opponent first. Bad if they're captured, but Rand can't just pull Moridin's plans out of his mind because he fails a saving throw.

Teleportation is extremely limited based on rules of the magic system that don't change based on how powerful you are. There are gateways, where you either have to know a spot well or have line of sight, and there's skimming which takes time, and you have to know where you are very well. Bottom line, you can't go somewhere you're not familiar with quickly, which is the most game breaking aspect of teleportation. And the line of sight gateways the Asha'man were doing, bouncing from mountaintop to mountaintop were pretty damn cool, but not fundamentally different from fast overland travel.

No flight. You can do invisible floating platforms and you can pick things up, but you can't pick yourself up. Now, of course, that may just be because they haven't figured out how to make big invisible wings, but I imagine that would take an inordinate amount of skill. At any rate, not even any of the Forsaken or Lews Therin know how.

No resurrection. Sure, the Dark One can resurrect the Forsaken, but it doesn't seem to be pleasant and it's not at all certain. Regardless, the One Power can't raise the dead, so it's not available to anyone but a small handful of baddies. The closest they can come is balefire, which rolls back time a few seconds (or minutes if you're Rand and going berserk) on the actions of the thing it zaps, but that's the equivalent of the nuclear option in that world. There's a general agreement not to use it from both sides or there'll be nothing left for either side to enjoy. It's been done exactly once to bring back a main character from an extremely sudden, random death.

Countermeasures. There are countermeasures for everything, including the ability to channel itself, and making a trick work (such as invisibility done with inverted weaves) relies more on surprise than skill with the One Power. Ganging up on even Rand, the most powerful channeler in the world, can and has been catastrophically effective.

And finally, a social factor. The Aes Sedai who've been bound can't use their powers to kill anyone who isn't placing them or their warders in imminent danger. Admittedly, there are lots of people running around by the end who aren't bound the same way, but they typically have their own agendas they're using their powers for. It sets a lot of the expectation in the world for how magic will be used. The stuff happening in the books is out of the ordinary.

The most "game-breaking" thing in the world, IMO, is the Asha'man. They're training to kill as a large military unit, using the One Power in ways that nobody in that world has seen before, excpet perhaps for the Forsaken. Everyone else tries to make a go at things individually or in a circle which boosts the leader's power level. Dumai's Wells was frightening. A group of Asha'man were surrounded by a large non-channeling army. They set up a defensive ring, protected by shields, and then proceeded to implode everyone around them in concentric rings.
 
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