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<blockquote data-quote="UngainlyTitan" data-source="post: 8862597" data-attributes="member: 28487">There is a lot to unpack here: paragraphs please.I largely agree, I was using 5e because I am more familiar with it (I have not played TSR D&amp;D in over 30 years) and because the thread tile is to bring the game back to the dungeon and that would be a thing starting from 5e (the current edition).As I say I largely agree as to your point about the nature of the divide and that it is most stark in the change from AD&amp;D 2e to D&amp;D 3.x. However, I would note that elements of the change were appearing in AD&amp;D (as you also note). I think the split in (lets call it) level of abstraction of environment is the divide and it is independent of dungeons. So, could it be invoked in 5e (or 3,x) by a culture of play where skill/ability checks are never called by the players and only called by the DM once the appropriate level of interaction has been reached.Is this enough to restore player skill in to the game. Would this play the same if the skill/proficiencies and the ability to call for ability checks was explicitly agreed at the table was reserved for the DM only?To what degree are cantrips an issue?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="UngainlyTitan, post: 8862597, member: 28487"] There is a lot to unpack here: paragraphs please. I largely agree, I was using 5e because I am more familiar with it (I have not played TSR D&D in over 30 years) and because the thread tile is to bring the game back to the dungeon and that would be a thing starting from 5e (the current edition). As I say I largely agree as to your point about the nature of the divide and that it is most stark in the change from AD&D 2e to D&D 3.x. However, I would note that elements of the change were appearing in AD&D (as you also note). I think the split in (lets call it) level of abstraction of environment is the divide and it is independent of dungeons. So, could it be invoked in 5e (or 3,x) by a culture of play where skill/ability checks are never called by the players and only called by the DM once the appropriate level of interaction has been reached. Is this enough to restore player skill in to the game. Would this play the same if the skill/proficiencies and the ability to call for ability checks was explicitly agreed at the table was reserved for the DM only? To what degree are cantrips an issue? [/QUOTE]

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