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<blockquote data-quote="James Gasik" data-source="post: 8863414" data-attributes="member: 6877472">It's interesting that those goals are things that have been stripped away from the game over time.&nbsp; We lost training in 2e, and automatic followers in 3e (though Leadership was still something that could be used, though it quickly proved to be one of the game's most busted options).&nbsp; I can only assume, based on what I witnessed myself, that players were less concerned with becoming landed movers and shakers in the world as a goal, and just wanted more adventuring.&nbsp; I have a friend who runs a 2e campaign (he refuses to even look at more modern editions, grumbling about there being no reason to change Thac0- no matter how many times over the past 3 decades he's watched me fumble trying to figure out what AC I hit, lol).Not long ago, he was running a game for his nephew and some other friends- they were fighting a zombie horde and trying to figure out what to do with The Crown of Evil Might.During the session, apparently his nephew was griping about the endless combat, and his desire for more treasure (it turns out zombies don't really have a lot of loot, go figure!), and my friend was complaining to me about it, since it had basically soured the rest of the evening.To which I was like &quot;wait.&nbsp; I know he's name level.&nbsp; He's the baron of Falkrest!&quot;&quot;Yes, that's right.&quot;&quot;The guy has an army and a fleet, if he wants treasure, why doesn't he just go knock over a small country somewhere?&nbsp; And why is he fighting zombies by himself anyways?&nbsp; He has men-at-arms, and isn't he still bound to Blackrazor?&nbsp; I thought that thing was useless at fighting undead!&quot;My friend just shrugged.&nbsp; &quot;He doesn't want to do anything with his army, other than have it protect his lands.&nbsp; He wants to adventure.&quot;I'm not saying that bringing back these things would be bad- I certainly liked them (and I'm hoping Bastions won't be a waste of time).&nbsp; And I know the thread is about &quot;how we could change the game&quot;, not &quot;should we change the game&quot;.But I think it's still worth reviewing why the game has changed in the first place.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="James Gasik, post: 8863414, member: 6877472"] It's interesting that those goals are things that have been stripped away from the game over time. We lost training in 2e, and automatic followers in 3e (though Leadership was still something that could be used, though it quickly proved to be one of the game's most busted options). I can only assume, based on what I witnessed myself, that players were less concerned with becoming landed movers and shakers in the world as a goal, and just wanted more adventuring. I have a friend who runs a 2e campaign (he refuses to even look at more modern editions, grumbling about there being no reason to change Thac0- no matter how many times over the past 3 decades he's watched me fumble trying to figure out what AC I hit, lol). Not long ago, he was running a game for his nephew and some other friends- they were fighting a zombie horde and trying to figure out what to do with The Crown of Evil Might. During the session, apparently his nephew was griping about the endless combat, and his desire for more treasure (it turns out zombies don't really have a lot of loot, go figure!), and my friend was complaining to me about it, since it had basically soured the rest of the evening. To which I was like "wait. I know he's name level. He's the baron of Falkrest!" "Yes, that's right." "The guy has an army and a fleet, if he wants treasure, why doesn't he just go knock over a small country somewhere? And why is he fighting zombies by himself anyways? He has men-at-arms, and isn't he still bound to [I]Blackrazor[/I]? I thought that thing was useless at fighting undead!" My friend just shrugged. "He doesn't want to do anything with his army, other than have it protect his lands. He wants to adventure." I'm not saying that bringing back these things would be bad- I certainly liked them (and I'm hoping Bastions won't be a waste of time). And I know the thread is about "how we could change the game", not "should we change the game". But I think it's still worth reviewing [B]why [/B]the game has changed in the first place. [/QUOTE]

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