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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 8882472" data-attributes="member: 6696971">I don't quite understand how you arrive at this position.If you played Mouse Guard like that...you were playing it in a way that is outside of not just the spirit of the game, but the actual procedures of the game.  Same thing with Torchbearer.The fiction matters DEEPLY to resolution in these games.  You don't get to ignore that fiction whether you're a GM framing an obstacle/problem area or creating a Twist in a Mission in Mouse Guard or a Journey/Adventure in Torchbearer.  You don't get to ignore that fiction if you're counting up Factors to determine the Obstacle Rating for a Test.  You don't get to ignore that fiction if you're a player (d) orienting yourself to the obstacle/problem area before you, (b) rummaging through your decision-space to ultimately determine what resources you can bring to bear here and what Skill you're going to Test (and if you can tap Nature or use a Trait etc), or (c) the downstream consequences of your resolved actions (the new fiction fiction/gamestate, your ticks on Advancement, if you've fought for or struggled with your Belief, etc).Just like in D&D...you know what...MORESO than in D&D, the fiction matters.  Why?  Because the consequences in these games of a fiction evolved in an adversarial way (with an attendant negative gamestate evolution) to your character has MUCH_MORE_TEETH than in D&D.Consequences in the bulk of D&D are comparatively much more color and performative than they are in Mouse Guard and CERTAINLY MORE in Torchbearer.  Fictional outputs often create significant if not dire changes to characters and the crucible (setting, situation, story) in which they are being tested.Fundamentally disagree...and I don't even know how you could arrive at such a conclusion to be honest.EDIT - Question for you and for anyone else who is interested in replying.When you make the claim "you manipulate game mechanics rather than <play a> roleplaying game" (eg the fiction doesn't matter as an input to action declaration and resolution and subsequent fiction/gamestate) are you saying something like this:The GM's fiction (their preconceived ideas on setting and/or metaplot or an AP) doesn't have primacy in the trajectory of play (including the authority to suspend rules and impose desired outcomes if the GM feels its more conducive to a "good story") and/or the player's performative color/flourishes aren't their own primary input?  Put another way, the formulation is:GM provides story/settingPlayers provide color and performative flourish.</blockquote>

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