What did we do before feats, skills, and prestige classes?

[diaglo]

Isn't sense of wonder to do with the things those PCs do, the places they go, essentially in the adventures that they have?

to answer your question simply. no, not alone.

but it has to do with the things you mention. it also has to do with the things you try and discredit or ignore... like abilities, feats, skills and the like.

it is all of these things that make the game. and all of them have a sense of wonder.

 

[Whisper72]

So despite the fact that the PHB itself mentions changing core classes to suit your needs and makes a few recommendations about dropping feats, etc..., and the DMG has the Witch Class and other bits, we'ves lost the sense of wonder because we can buy stuff that other people do? :\

Not disagreeing with you but there is nothing inherent about D&D or any game system that forces people to use only 'official' material especially when the core books themselves suggest ways on making the game yours.

Well... I am not saying that _per se_ sense of wonder has been lost under the new system, merely that, with the plethora of ideas of others, there is less _need_ to do stuff yourself. This does not detract at all on all those who enjoy tinkering and inventing stuff from doing so under any system and any edition, but I am merely saying that people who would almost be 'forced' to get inventive under the old system, now no longer are.

Some people like to have all the options, and quite frankly, as a DM I also mine them with great gusto, but precisely because the older DnD editions were lacking, there was more of a need for people to improvise, and thus, creativity was actually _stimulated_, where now, the creativity is much more dependant upon the effort the player or DM is willing and able to put into it. You are absolutely correct that the newer systems do not force anyone to do anything, actually quite the opposite. The _older_ systems, because of their 'faults' _did_ pertty much force people to be more creative and think for themselves.

I happen to think that this was a 'good thing', which is naturally a pure matter of opinion.

 

[delericho]

With the risc of becoming political, one could sorta compare it with...

Wow! I'd hate to see what you think actually is political!

 

[Whisper72]

That's twice recently that I've seen someone comment about sense of wonder with relation to PC abilities (the other being in a thread about limiting high level magic that was lost in the crash).

I must say I find it odd that people want to instill a sense of wonder into abilities that the players should know inside and out. Isn't sense of wonder to do with the things those PCs do, the places they go, essentially in the adventures that they have?

I do not quite follow you, I do not think that that is what I imlpied, or at least I did not mean to do so. I do _not_ believe that the SoW comes from the listed abilities of the PC, quite the contrary, I believe SoW comes from the fact that the _players_ have to imagine more about how their PC's do stuff, rather than simply look up some rule, and a DM has to imagine how things play out rather than see if the rule fits and the correct die was rolled...

And of course, from the game world, the adventures and all that....

 

[National Acrobat]

I've used my imagination from Basic DnD up to 3.5 DnD. I have found in my games of 3E, that my players simply expand upon that by fleshing out their characters with skills that define that imagination, that's all. Examples include characters that grew up on farms, take ranks in Knowledge Agriculture or Profession Farmer.

My players simply note those things on the PC's sheets to flesh them out and add to their PC's background and history.

Since I don't allow prestige classes, we don't have that issue to deal with.

 

[Psion]

What did we do to make our archtypes, specific novel/movie characters, and new and usual characters before having feats, skills, and prestige classes? Back before we even had kits.

We didn't. We made people who went into dungeons and hacked up monsters.

It's almost like the old core classes were characters in their own right.


One of my first house rules was to actually give the ranger the right "secondary skills" (remember those) that a woodsman type would have. Because 1e didn't do it.

We've come a long way, baby. Even now, though, D&D isn't well tuned to emulate some literary characters. Some things that rely on different cosmology or magic systems are to be expected, but if you want an experience more emulative of novel type characters but don't want to scrap D&D for some other system, even now I think you need something like the Jack of All Trades class from the Black Company campaign setting.

 

[Whisper72]

Wow! I'd hate to see what you think actually is political!

Yeah, on hindsight, you're quite right... I deleted it, so the thread does not devolve into political debate... apologies...

 

[ruleslawyer]

Dont'cha love it when people say exactly what you're thinking?

You know, as much fun as it is for old-timers to heap scorn on a more detailed rules set, I've got to disagree. That attitude strikes me as intellectual elitism, and it gives nostalgia too heavy a weight for my own personal taste.

I use my imagination as much or more in 3e than I did in 1e. I very clearly remember making up a dwarven fighter in 1st edition, and being incredibly frustrated that mechanically he was like every other fighter out there. Sure, I had an elaborate backstory for him, just like I do for my characters nowadays, but I always had the nagging feeling of so much lost potential.

That's no longer true for me. Maybe its because I play with DMs who respect the rules without being shackled to them (as my favorite DMs always are), but I now can match my character's abilities to the intricate vision I have in my head. I love that about D&D nowadays.

What did we do? We invented rules for the unique character, such as "Drizzt's cuts are so wicked that he has an X % chance of killing his foe outright", or "Treat Fafhrd as having levels of bard, Fighter, and Cleric even if he doesn't meet the prerequisites to Dual Class."

Nowadays, it's more like "pick the puzzle pieces that fit what this character is described as doing."

I will add:

"We spent our time poring through page-long grapple, THAC0, and saving throw tables, and trying to figure out which of the "Doors" entry in the 1e DMG referred to the scenario at issue. Then we just gave up and handwaved it... which was plenty of fun!" (And no, I'm not being sarcastic, actually. It *was* plenty of fun. Doesn't mean that streamlined rules and more flexible mechanical options are a bad idea either.)

 

[Mallus]

I had no problem differentiating/personalizing characters in the prior editions. We made the tools that were absent from the ruleset, as needed. That said, it didn't make me and my buddies creative geniuses or unique and precious snowflakes. It was just part of the game.

For the record, I like all the new options, even though I'm of the opinion that they should be used in moderation. They really add something to the game. However, and I can't stress this enough, what they add is completely unrelated to me making 'the character I want'. They don't help me model anything but the D&D rules system.

 

[Maggan]

What did we do to make our archtypes, specific novel/movie characters, and new and usual characters before having feats, skills, and prestige classes? Back before we even had kits.

Quasqueton

I did much the same thing as I do now: I write backstory, I write down what the PCs look like, what clothes they wear and so on.

Also, I decided quite arbitrarily that my PCs had a lot of special limitations that weren't really supported in the rules ("My PC is a great fencer with a rapier ... but he can't get the hang of broadswords").

Much like I do today. Some more detail, some more support in the rules for the character concepts I have, but basically it's the same process: roll up a bunch of stats and use my imagination.

I keep my imagination well exercised and open to new ideas. Which was the attitude that brought me to roleplaying games, and the attitude that I have kept with me all these years.

And I always keep it with me, so I always know where it is: right where it should be, chatting with my Sense of Wonder, looking for new ways to keep me entertained and amazed.

Cheers!

Magnus