What did we do before feats, skills, and prestige classes?
- Thread starter Quasqueton
- Start date
I am thankful for 3E for giving me the games that I wanted.
2E made things very difficult. It was dry, flat, and every fighter was no different than any other fighter other than their choice of weapon specialization. Meanwhile, me and my friends were young, in junior high then heading into high school, and we were completely HIGH on DBZ, Street Fighter, and other visually-satisfying, massive variety, awesome power entertainment seen in japanese-anime and video games.
Always there was "I want to be this, but be able to do that, but do this also, and I can deal with not doing this or being so so at it" but 2E didn't give the options and structure to do so. And it felt like D&D Twilight Zone whenever we began house ruling our own stuff into the game. But we dealt with it.
Soon, EVERY character multiclassed in our sessions. It wasn't a matter of power-gaming, no. It was a matter of developing a character and keeping to the rules and game mechanics at the same time. We've had Fighter/Song Mages, Psion/Fighters, Fighter/Mages, Ninja/Mages, etc. Thankfully, 2E had come out with Class Kits, Player's Option books, and the DM's Option: High-Level Campaign book. Also by then we did away with racial restrictions to both levels and class. In a sense, we were slowly transforming our games into a 2.5E without realizing it.
Someone mention in this thread that he remembers when he had an elven Fighter in 2E but played him like a knight. He didn't need PrC, feats, or whatever to tell him so. But it's not just how you play a character that separates you from the rest, it's also what your character can do and the abilities he or she possesses. Sure, play your Fighter as a knight, but without the Knight class they have in 3E, can your fighter call out his foe, continue fighting in the negative hit points, automatically receive a benefit to ride better than a Fighter (their free Mounted Combat feat), have more willpower than the other guy, etc., etc.?
No.
He was no different than the other warrior except by title. Nowadays, you can always have the unique character you want. Did you know that we even role-play in story arcs how the characters receive their feats, skill ranks, and class abilities? I remember when my friend's ranger acquired 4th-level, he was with his character's uncle, a 7th-level Ranger of Mielikki, and together they went to a religious holiday of their religion set on the autumn equinox. It also happened to be the character's birthday, as well. After celebrating and performing sacred rituals, the character went off alone to receive his deity's blessing. After some prayer in a secluded grove with a sparkling pool of water, his first animal companion arrived as both a gift and a blessing that Mielikki was proud of him and his deeds. He also intuitively received a connection to the Weave and then through his goddess so he can acquire the divine spells she will be granting him when he asks each morning.
But, my point is this. 3E offers what D&D has never offered before. More and more options to keep the player satisfied. As opposed to "Sorry, you can NEVER be a dwarven wizard. 2E rules say you can't" or "Sorry, you can never rise equally as both a decent warrior and an arcane spellcaster without falling behind from your allies" (thanks to Eldritch Knight, yeah you can)
2E made things very difficult. It was dry, flat, and every fighter was no different than any other fighter other than their choice of weapon specialization. Meanwhile, me and my friends were young, in junior high then heading into high school, and we were completely HIGH on DBZ, Street Fighter, and other visually-satisfying, massive variety, awesome power entertainment seen in japanese-anime and video games.
Always there was "I want to be this, but be able to do that, but do this also, and I can deal with not doing this or being so so at it" but 2E didn't give the options and structure to do so. And it felt like D&D Twilight Zone whenever we began house ruling our own stuff into the game. But we dealt with it.
Soon, EVERY character multiclassed in our sessions. It wasn't a matter of power-gaming, no. It was a matter of developing a character and keeping to the rules and game mechanics at the same time. We've had Fighter/Song Mages, Psion/Fighters, Fighter/Mages, Ninja/Mages, etc. Thankfully, 2E had come out with Class Kits, Player's Option books, and the DM's Option: High-Level Campaign book. Also by then we did away with racial restrictions to both levels and class. In a sense, we were slowly transforming our games into a 2.5E without realizing it.
Someone mention in this thread that he remembers when he had an elven Fighter in 2E but played him like a knight. He didn't need PrC, feats, or whatever to tell him so. But it's not just how you play a character that separates you from the rest, it's also what your character can do and the abilities he or she possesses. Sure, play your Fighter as a knight, but without the Knight class they have in 3E, can your fighter call out his foe, continue fighting in the negative hit points, automatically receive a benefit to ride better than a Fighter (their free Mounted Combat feat), have more willpower than the other guy, etc., etc.?
No.
He was no different than the other warrior except by title. Nowadays, you can always have the unique character you want. Did you know that we even role-play in story arcs how the characters receive their feats, skill ranks, and class abilities? I remember when my friend's ranger acquired 4th-level, he was with his character's uncle, a 7th-level Ranger of Mielikki, and together they went to a religious holiday of their religion set on the autumn equinox. It also happened to be the character's birthday, as well. After celebrating and performing sacred rituals, the character went off alone to receive his deity's blessing. After some prayer in a secluded grove with a sparkling pool of water, his first animal companion arrived as both a gift and a blessing that Mielikki was proud of him and his deeds. He also intuitively received a connection to the Weave and then through his goddess so he can acquire the divine spells she will be granting him when he asks each morning.
But, my point is this. 3E offers what D&D has never offered before. More and more options to keep the player satisfied. As opposed to "Sorry, you can NEVER be a dwarven wizard. 2E rules say you can't" or "Sorry, you can never rise equally as both a decent warrior and an arcane spellcaster without falling behind from your allies" (thanks to Eldritch Knight, yeah you can)
Tsillanabor
First Post
Shade said:
Quoted for Truth.
Ds Da Man
First Post
Well, I disagree Razz. I had DMs that allowed certain bonuses do to back story, or character idea. I think it has always come down to the DM. 3E just adds a crapload of stuff to make DMing it a pain. DMing is like a punishment for our group. No one wants to run a game in 3E anymore. There is always some arguement about RAW and DM ruling. It ain't worth it.
Hussar
Legend
Not to get dragged into another edition war, but, what did 3e add that added so much work for DM's? I'm honestly very curious about this since my prep time in 2e was about the same as my time in 3e.
Then again, in 3e, I rarely monkey with the monsters all that much. Stock works 99% of the time, so advancing a wolf doesn't appeal to me.
Then again, in 3e, I rarely monkey with the monsters all that much. Stock works 99% of the time, so advancing a wolf doesn't appeal to me.
harmyn
First Post
Hussar said:
What is harder about prep time? Umm.... Everything stat related.
How do you use NPC adversaries as stock? Major NPCs require you to go through and choose feats and skills that might be relevant along with appropriate gear and relevant spells or special abilities that will need to be noted. And as the players get higher in level this becomes much more involved and complex if you are trying to create an actual challenge.
Also advancing a wolf doesn't appeal to you? Fair enough. Of course you did choose a mundane monster as an example. What about fiendish and celestial templates? Dire monsters? Never use a troll with a character class other than the example given? Allow the players to take half-dragon template but never use it for the baddies? Are all of your vampires and liches the same then? These would also be created much like characters by the time you are done if you want them to have any individual flavor under the 3.x rules. Even dragons out of the box require customization for feat choices and spells to represent their abilitites.
I don't generally advance wolves myself. But the half-celestial Troll hybrid took some time to stat out. As did the 16th level cleric the characters had to face some time back. Also the heavily armored knight took some time to complete just to map out his feats for the correct effect.
I'm sorry, but you will never convince me that prep for a game is no harder in 3.x than it was in any of the previous editions. Look at the stat block alone. There is a lot more to calculate and note than ever before.
I can and do enjoy playing the new rules and have made adventures for characters over a span of levels 1 thru 17 in it so far. But there is a great deal more to prep and notations on purely mechanical things than ever before.
Gold Roger
First Post
Ds Da Man said:
No, never have seen that in my life. I enjoy DMing 3.5, as no doubt do many other DMs around here. The system may not be for you, but don't generalize your personal stance to involve anyone as proof for your personal stance.
Hussar
Legend
That's fair enough Harmyn, but, at the same time, how often are you making half-celestial trolls?
Maybe it was because I mostly played in Scarred Lands. Because 99% of the creatures were entirely new to my players, I never bothered tweaking them. Why bother making a Vengaurak abyssal when the players have never seen one before? If I needed a higher CR, I used a different critter.
So, yeah, maybe I don't notice the difference since I'm just too lazy.
Almost never bother adding character levels to creatures. If I want a CR 3 humanoid, I don't use a 3rd level fighter orc, I use an ogre. The NPC Wiki has something like 1000 npc's ready to use, so, that cuts down on prep time right there. Never used a vampire or a lich ever, so, never had to worry about those.
In other words, it's not that tricky to keep prep time to a minimum. Don't use the stuff that takes a ton of work to stat out. Need a big demonic lobster thingie in your lake? Elder Tojanida with a changed description. Poof, instant demon lobster and no prep time.
But, this is way off topic, so I'll stop now.
Maybe it was because I mostly played in Scarred Lands. Because 99% of the creatures were entirely new to my players, I never bothered tweaking them. Why bother making a Vengaurak abyssal when the players have never seen one before? If I needed a higher CR, I used a different critter.
So, yeah, maybe I don't notice the difference since I'm just too lazy.
Almost never bother adding character levels to creatures. If I want a CR 3 humanoid, I don't use a 3rd level fighter orc, I use an ogre. The NPC Wiki has something like 1000 npc's ready to use, so, that cuts down on prep time right there. Never used a vampire or a lich ever, so, never had to worry about those.In other words, it's not that tricky to keep prep time to a minimum. Don't use the stuff that takes a ton of work to stat out. Need a big demonic lobster thingie in your lake? Elder Tojanida with a changed description. Poof, instant demon lobster and no prep time.
But, this is way off topic, so I'll stop now.
Similar Threads
