What didn't people like about Greyhawk From the Ashes?

[00Machado]

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=191219&page=1&pp=40

I'm a fan of the Greyhawk boxed set of 1983... it's probably the best boxed setting I've seen. I'd accept non-EGG material... but the whole "Greyhawk Wars" thing sucked so bad that it's probably a moot point.

The above thread/quote got me to wondering. I've seen a lot of people who didn't like the Greyhawk Wars and From the Ashes material, and I'm wondering why?

Was it that they changed things? Meaning essentially any material that wasn't an adventure would have been unwelcome?

Was it that you would have been happy with different changes, but not the ones they made? If so, which would you have prefered?

Did you find the products themselves of poor quality, as opposed to having any real issue with the ideas?

From my perspective, I liked the material. It made the setting seem more vivid and an inspiring place to set campaigns. I must say though that I wasn't overly familiar with the background before reading it. I'd played characters in the setting, and had an idea of some of the background, but wasn't steeped in Greyhawk lore, so to speak. Separate from the Greyhawk-ness of the material, I also found the ideas well presented, to the point where it made me think about playing differently in any future campaign/setting or home brew.

 

[Thulcondar]

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=191219&page=1&pp=40



The above thread/quote got me to wondering. I've seen a lot of people who didn't like the Greyhawk Wars and From the Ashes material, and I'm wondering why?

Was it that they changed things? Meaning essentially any material that wasn't an adventure would have been unwelcome?

Was it that you would have been happy with different changes, but not the ones they made? If so, which would you have prefered?

Did you find the products themselves of poor quality, as opposed to having any real issue with the ideas?

From my perspective, I liked the material. It made the setting seem more vivid and an inspiring place to set campaigns. I must say though that I wasn't overly familiar with the background before reading it. I'd played characters in the setting, and had an idea of some of the background, but wasn't steeped in Greyhawk lore, so to speak. Separate from the Greyhawk-ness of the material, I also found the ideas well presented, to the point where it made me think about playing differently in any future campaign/setting or home brew.

From my perspective, FtA simply seemed... unnecessary.

It was a blatant attempt to wrench away the WoG from the material that Gyax wrote (remember, the Wars and FtA came about right after his departure from TSR). The original (1980/1983 books) presented a fantasy world in the "old school" tradition. A place for a DM to set adventures; a sketched-out starting-point that the DM could fill in as needed and desired. FtA tore that asunder; all of a sudden, a DM with a years-long Greyhawk campaign was faced with a decision; go with the "canon" history, or the one he had carefully created as the game play proceeded?

That was bad enough, but in addition the post-FtA Greyhawk started filling in all sorts of details that were similarly previously the demesne of the DM. Products like "Iuz the Evil". It was a reaction to the success of the Forgotten Realms products, where everthing was set up and presented in nauseating detail, for the benefit of lazy DMs who either couldn't work up those details on their own or couldn't think them up on the fly as needed. There was no room for individual DM creativity any more.

Greyhawk was at its best when it was a framework upon which the DM could imprint his or her own creative stamp. A place where you could plunk a "generic" dungeon. The Post-FtA Greyhawk was too much like Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance; everything laid out following an inexorable path, or detailed to the point where the talents of setting design were no longer needed.

 

[Twowolves]

Other than the fact that Howl from the North and Five Shall Be One were total railroads that ended with the PCs watching the Greyhawk Wars open, I'm not sure. Frankly, I'd like to know. I thought there was a ton of info here, and lots of adventure hooks. I wanted to run a campaign that took place during the wars, but was too busy with my regular campaign back then.

 

[trollwad]

There is a semi-famous essay online called something like "putting the grey in hawk." Basically, from the ashes was generally flawed because it violated many of the internal dynamics of the setting. Having some wars or Iuz playing a practical joke on the barbarians to get them to invade some patsies is fine and the setting could have accomodated Howl From The North, it just went well beyond what was needed

 

[Gentlegamer]

I like From the Ashes! I liked the resulting "dangerous areas" . . . perfect for adventure. I particularly loved the Empire of Iuz that stretched across the north. Part of my resulting campaign involved King Belvor of Furyondy and the Archcleric of Veluna declaring a crusade against Iuz that involved the recovery of the Crook of Rao.

 

[Thulcondar]

There is a semi-famous essay online called something like "putting the grey in hawk."

Google is not my friend this eve. Got a link? I would love to read that essay.

 

[I'm Cleo]

I, for one, just liked the world that FtA created. EGG wasn't involved anymore, and I think a lot of people were upset about that, but I didn't have any loyalty to him beyond my desire to use his material in my campaign (just like the authors of any supplement, adventure, sourcebook, &c.). Additionally, a lot of people had Greyhawk campaigns running at the time and it was a major shift in the setting (though it's an RPG -- you can do whatever you want).

I think it just came down to "feel". Greyhawk was very "classic" (the problem of the extent to which "classic" is defined by "Greyhawk", I leave to the reader), and FtA was more dark -- not in the sense that there was evil everywhere, but that things were more desperate. As any post-war situation, really. If you don't go for that, it's not for you; but if you do, like me, then it's great.

And I think there's a solid dose of romanticizing the past going on, too. "In my day . . ." and all that.

I'm Cleo!

Edit: I did some Googling (I guess she was my friend, nyah, nyah, nyah! ), and came up with this site: This Site, which contains lots of Greyhawk stuff, including "What is Greyhawk? 'Putting the Grey in Hawk'", which may or may not be the document you're looking for.

 

[Thulcondar]

Edit: I did some Googling (I guess she was my friend, nyah, nyah, nyah! ), and came up with this site: This Site, which contains lots of Greyhawk stuff, including "What is Greyhawk? 'Putting the Grey in Hawk'", which may or may not be the document you're looking for.

Oh, yikes, not Nitescreed...

Ugh...

 

[Dr. Harry]

There is a semi-famous essay online called something like "putting the grey in hawk." Basically, from the ashes was generally flawed because it violated many of the internal dynamics of the setting. Having some wars or Iuz playing a practical joke on the barbarians to get them to invade some patsies is fine and the setting could have accomodated Howl From The North, it just went well beyond what was needed

I started playing with the '83 Greyhawk folder, so I see a lot of the hater's points, but I liked Carl Sargent's work so much (and even the feel of the artwork) that I was willing to forgive a lot. Plus, by this point I was just stealing stuff for my own campaign, and if I went back to my Greyhawk campaign I had no problem with using our own continuity, so I liked these supplements.

 

[Ron]

From the Ashes is a great product, as many of the post-Gygaxian Greyhawk supplements (but not many adventures). However, I prefer the original box.

I would love to read a complete setting developed by Carls Sargent focusing in a dark high-fantasy mood. Still, borrowing from Conan fans, From the Ashes is a pastiche. I would rather have something based in a single vision, resulting from the efforts of a single creative team. As such, Greyhawk to me is limited to the 1983 boxed set (or the 1980 Folio) and a few adventures (GDQ, T1-4, S4, WG4, WG6, EX1, EX2 and, perhaps, WG5).

The great advantage of my admittedly restricted view of Greyhawk is that I stopped worrying about the lack of new published support years ago.