What do you expect from the Epic Level Handbook?
- Thread starter Dark Psion
- Start date
Upper_Krust
Legend
Hi Zelda matey! 
Going by the statement from Clark Peterson it seems as though Monster Manual 2 and the Tome of Horrors are the place for these.
I do like the Thorciasid.
I wonder what will be in the next Dragon preview?
You can always use mine!
Hellblast spell and Everdancing weapons.
Thats a given.
I like the sound of the big Epic City they are including.
I hope they include an Epic Adventure too?
I'm sure it will be more or less the same.
Zelda Themelin said:
Going by the statement from Clark Peterson it seems as though Monster Manual 2 and the Tome of Horrors are the place for these.
Zelda Themelin said:
I do like the Thorciasid.
I wonder what will be in the next Dragon preview?
Zelda Themelin said:
You can always use mine!
Zelda Themelin said:
Hellblast spell and Everdancing weapons.
Zelda Themelin said:
Thats a given.
Zelda Themelin said:
I like the sound of the big Epic City they are including.
I hope they include an Epic Adventure too?
Zelda Themelin said:
I'm sure it will be more or less the same.
Psion
Adventurer
What I expect is some rules that will handle characters higher than 20th level.
I also expect not to use it regularly. In fact, I expect to only use about 10% of the book.
I am not excited about the epic level book. I'll dispense with the term "munchkin" for now, because munchkin is usually a term for "gamers whose style I don't like."
To me, it's simply just not necessary. I can perfectly understand why someone would get a thrill out of having a character progress in power until they are a force to be reckoned with. However, I just fail to see how a 20th level character doesn't fill that need. All this talk of epic spells and hideously high save DCs seem like flavorless piling on of numbers to me.
Further, one survey (on the AskTheDM ML) suggested that about one percent of players play games in the 20+ level region. Now you might argue that is because of lack of the rules for such things. However, the numbers for the higher levels pretty uniformly taper off in general, so I wouldn't attribute it to that.
So essentially what I see happening is the production of a huge book for a small percentage of the audience. I imagine that most people are like me and will primarily use it for those few 21st-30th level characters that exist in the background of the game. But really, I think just handling that amount of content could have been done in a 96-page softcover. A 320-page book seems like overkill to me.
Of course I may be pleasantly surprised and they may come out with something really exciting. But if you want to know what I expect, there ya go.
I also expect not to use it regularly. In fact, I expect to only use about 10% of the book.
I am not excited about the epic level book. I'll dispense with the term "munchkin" for now, because munchkin is usually a term for "gamers whose style I don't like."
To me, it's simply just not necessary. I can perfectly understand why someone would get a thrill out of having a character progress in power until they are a force to be reckoned with. However, I just fail to see how a 20th level character doesn't fill that need. All this talk of epic spells and hideously high save DCs seem like flavorless piling on of numbers to me.
Further, one survey (on the AskTheDM ML) suggested that about one percent of players play games in the 20+ level region. Now you might argue that is because of lack of the rules for such things. However, the numbers for the higher levels pretty uniformly taper off in general, so I wouldn't attribute it to that.
So essentially what I see happening is the production of a huge book for a small percentage of the audience. I imagine that most people are like me and will primarily use it for those few 21st-30th level characters that exist in the background of the game. But really, I think just handling that amount of content could have been done in a 96-page softcover. A 320-page book seems like overkill to me.
Of course I may be pleasantly surprised and they may come out with something really exciting. But if you want to know what I expect, there ya go.
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I expect to see characters who can easily crush any god in Deities & Demigods, but no tip how to roleplay that and no DM tips how to make adventures for them except what monster to throw out so that the characters get the most Exp out of the battle.
I think Deities & Demigods is a main reason why this book is printed. Why give god stats when nearly nobody can kill them?
So, Wizard can sell two more books.
I think Deities & Demigods is a main reason why this book is printed. Why give god stats when nearly nobody can kill them?
So, Wizard can sell two more books.
Anabstercorian
First Post
I hope to see:
Cataclysmic, earth-shaking power
Rogues who run through treetops and monks who ride the wind
Guns. Lots of guns.
Lots of psionic support
Advice on integrating ultra-powerful entities in to a game world realistically (Yeah, the king is a 7th level Aristocrat, and his bodyguard is a 26th level fighter. Something ain't right here.)
Rules for blowing up buildings, mountains, continents, planets, solar systems, planes, multiverses, multiversal strings, multiversal meta-strings...
Fights to the death
Imaginative, creative feats, skill uses, spells, classes, and items that make you go, "Awesome!" when you first read them, and make you go, "AWESOME!" when you go over them with a fine tooth comb.
The Ultima spell.
Stats for Emerald and Ruby Weapon.
Cataclysmic, earth-shaking power
Rogues who run through treetops and monks who ride the wind
Guns. Lots of guns.
Lots of psionic support
Advice on integrating ultra-powerful entities in to a game world realistically (Yeah, the king is a 7th level Aristocrat, and his bodyguard is a 26th level fighter. Something ain't right here.)
Rules for blowing up buildings, mountains, continents, planets, solar systems, planes, multiverses, multiversal strings, multiversal meta-strings...
Fights to the death
Imaginative, creative feats, skill uses, spells, classes, and items that make you go, "Awesome!" when you first read them, and make you go, "AWESOME!" when you go over them with a fine tooth comb.
The Ultima spell.
Stats for Emerald and Ruby Weapon.
Slaachma'jur
First Post
Epic thoughts
I think there is a question of scale here. I can see epic, heroic characters working in a very high fantasy setting a still having campaign potential, but I think it's this trend toward raising the bar that concerns me. In a particular campaign the GM should have I fair indication of the power level of "legendary heroes", and that that level tends to be pretty fixed. Ie. while characters can certainly become peers of these few, you really shouldn't get a lot of out-legending or else things get silly.
The problem is that if you design a setting supporting extremely high level characters, its fairly inplausable to have the low levels doing anything important, at least reasonalby. "What the imperial seal has been stolen and we're sending them (indicates 15th level characters), why don't we get some heroes with some experience "
Plus you know that Elmunchkinster will have to be epiced up
But hey, there's always stuff to use, just a question of how much...
I think there is a question of scale here. I can see epic, heroic characters working in a very high fantasy setting a still having campaign potential, but I think it's this trend toward raising the bar that concerns me. In a particular campaign the GM should have I fair indication of the power level of "legendary heroes", and that that level tends to be pretty fixed. Ie. while characters can certainly become peers of these few, you really shouldn't get a lot of out-legending or else things get silly.
The problem is that if you design a setting supporting extremely high level characters, its fairly inplausable to have the low levels doing anything important, at least reasonalby. "What the imperial seal has been stolen and we're sending them (indicates 15th level characters), why don't we get some heroes with some experience "
Plus you know that Elmunchkinster will have to be epiced up
But hey, there's always stuff to use, just a question of how much...
JacktheRabbit
Explorer
I expect game play that resembles either Crouching Tiger or your latest bad bit of anime. Am I looking forward to it?
Not in the least, all this is really is an accountants dream. More numbers to add up, more dice to roll. More skills to compile.
Epic is a mindset. Being of epic power is being 10 levels higher than the people around you. You don't need "Epic" rules unless you are running around somewhere like the FR where a 20th level mage happens to live in every small town and the average mayor is a 15th level retired fighter.
Not in the least, all this is really is an accountants dream. More numbers to add up, more dice to roll. More skills to compile.
Epic is a mindset. Being of epic power is being 10 levels higher than the people around you. You don't need "Epic" rules unless you are running around somewhere like the FR where a 20th level mage happens to live in every small town and the average mayor is a 15th level retired fighter.
JacktheRabbit
Explorer
Swordsman who can jump sword first perfectly parallel to the ground for hundreds of feet?
Fighting on the tops of bamboo trees?
Jumping building to building while running and never being out of breath?
Parrying hundreds of poision darts with your sword (ok hundreds minus 1 since 1 hit him).
Let me know when I get to something that a 10-14th level character can do without magic items or spells since the only magic item in the whole movie was the green sword and only the old woman could really rank as a spellcaster.
Fighting on the tops of bamboo trees?
Jumping building to building while running and never being out of breath?
Parrying hundreds of poision darts with your sword (ok hundreds minus 1 since 1 hit him).
Let me know when I get to something that a 10-14th level character can do without magic items or spells since the only magic item in the whole movie was the green sword and only the old woman could really rank as a spellcaster.
Psion said:
Psion
Adventurer
DocMoriartty said:
Heh... I think you are falling into the same folly that the Epic level book is... "to do neat things, you need more power..."
The types of things you allude to are indications of genre conventions more than power, and are handled in one way or another is a variety of places that you can use for inspiration. There are the extreme tumbling rules in OA, Robin Law's Wuxia genre rules in the Dragon and in Burning Shaolin, and various conventions and new options in Beyond Monks.
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