What do you like and dislike about Dark Sun?
- Thread starter Najo
- Start date
I did not play a lot (DM vanished), but I liked the setting.
*It was really deadly (I remember a session, 9 player, 8 dead, some were killed twice in the night...). So, when you survived, you were really happy. It was far more tense that any other game I played, except perhaps one or two werewolf games. (Of course, I didn't die. May be this help
)
*It was different, much more heroic than the average arthurian/tolkienesque setting
*It was not a problem to play evil characters. In fact, it helped you to survive. (was neutral, however, and even generous, for a halfling). And you could play evil while still being a real hero (there was an ex-slave gladiator in the party, LE to the core, but decided to destroy slavers, one after one, by all means). Thus the setting was somewhat less manicheist than most.
*It was really deadly (I remember a session, 9 player, 8 dead, some were killed twice in the night...). So, when you survived, you were really happy. It was far more tense that any other game I played, except perhaps one or two werewolf games. (Of course, I didn't die. May be this help
)*It was different, much more heroic than the average arthurian/tolkienesque setting
*It was not a problem to play evil characters. In fact, it helped you to survive. (was neutral, however, and even generous, for a halfling). And you could play evil while still being a real hero (there was an ex-slave gladiator in the party, LE to the core, but decided to destroy slavers, one after one, by all means). Thus the setting was somewhat less manicheist than most.
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Rant about the Dark Sun Dragon
Warning - Spoilers regarding the Dark Sun novels!
There is one thing I want to get off my chest about Dark Sun
A rant I have with the novels (and the revisied setting): The same party IMC (with 7 PCs of levels 16-18; 2 clerics, 1 wizard and 1 psionicist, rest fighter/ rouge types) who witnessed the dragon (see previous post) went on to infiltrate the templars in the city state of Urik with the assitance of the Veiled Alliance (PCs did this on their own accord, even though they were continueousily warned by allies not to). They eventual faced Hamanu (Urik's sorcerer king) in his own sanctuary and using a small portion of his high level spells, powers and magic items, Hamanu was able to kill them in under 10 rounds and they all died a horrible death as their minds and bodies were destroyed by a demi god (level 21 dragon) essentially. In the novels Borys is killed in one round by a single level 18 gladiator (with a magic sword made to slay the dragon). But the lame part is Borys should have easily been able to do what Hamanu did to my players (Borys is a level 30 dragon = level 20 wizard + level 20 psionicist + level 10 dragon, basically a level 50 character wereas Humanu is level 41). All borys had to do was cast high level spells, which as a defiler cause pain and nausea in living creatures within a certain radius, while Rikus climbed up the wall or as he jumped onto Borys nose, then proceed to destroy Rikus with psionics or magic. All the end fight in the book consists of is a mul (half dwarf) jumping off a wall, landing on the 50' tall dragon's nose and stabbing it with a sword, then this black goo comes out of the wound and spreads over the dragon's body, eating him alive. That ending always made me mad how they sold the dragon out so quickly, there isn't even a real fight and the dragon dies without doing anything. Aside from the dragon's sand blasting breath, 10th level spells and psionic powers and near invulnerabitly, the creature is literally able to suck the life out of creatures with its assortment of psionics, spells and from side effects of its defiling. This single event completely ruined the novels for me (which the forth book in the series is fantastic) and it took the power of the setting away. The dragon was never meant to be fought directly by the PCs (or at least shouldn't be until they are rivals in power after a LONG campaign), it was there more as a vengeful and mysterious power that everyone fears and makes yearly offerings and sacrifices to. Everything in the damn tyr region fears this creature, including the assorted sorcerer kings (demi gods in their own right) who supposedly created him. In fact, in the 2nd book of the series Rikus goes to war with the City State of Urik using an entire army made from thousands of ex-slaves and is forced to retreat back home. His army almost takes the city, but then Humanu shows up and basically does to Rikus and his army what Sauron does to the elves and men in the opening scenes of LOTRs: Fellowship of the Ring. Borys (the Dragon) should have had Rikus killed before he even got off the wall. Really lame to have the most powerful creature on Athas (a virtual "God") go down with one hit (in the nose at that) from a impressive but mortal gladiator who is essentially a third of the dragon's level and no where near its capabiltites in power. Ok rant over. I feel a little better now.
Nate
Warning - Spoilers regarding the Dark Sun novels!
There is one thing I want to get off my chest about Dark Sun
A rant I have with the novels (and the revisied setting): The same party IMC (with 7 PCs of levels 16-18; 2 clerics, 1 wizard and 1 psionicist, rest fighter/ rouge types) who witnessed the dragon (see previous post) went on to infiltrate the templars in the city state of Urik with the assitance of the Veiled Alliance (PCs did this on their own accord, even though they were continueousily warned by allies not to). They eventual faced Hamanu (Urik's sorcerer king) in his own sanctuary and using a small portion of his high level spells, powers and magic items, Hamanu was able to kill them in under 10 rounds and they all died a horrible death as their minds and bodies were destroyed by a demi god (level 21 dragon) essentially. In the novels Borys is killed in one round by a single level 18 gladiator (with a magic sword made to slay the dragon). But the lame part is Borys should have easily been able to do what Hamanu did to my players (Borys is a level 30 dragon = level 20 wizard + level 20 psionicist + level 10 dragon, basically a level 50 character wereas Humanu is level 41). All borys had to do was cast high level spells, which as a defiler cause pain and nausea in living creatures within a certain radius, while Rikus climbed up the wall or as he jumped onto Borys nose, then proceed to destroy Rikus with psionics or magic. All the end fight in the book consists of is a mul (half dwarf) jumping off a wall, landing on the 50' tall dragon's nose and stabbing it with a sword, then this black goo comes out of the wound and spreads over the dragon's body, eating him alive. That ending always made me mad how they sold the dragon out so quickly, there isn't even a real fight and the dragon dies without doing anything. Aside from the dragon's sand blasting breath, 10th level spells and psionic powers and near invulnerabitly, the creature is literally able to suck the life out of creatures with its assortment of psionics, spells and from side effects of its defiling. This single event completely ruined the novels for me (which the forth book in the series is fantastic) and it took the power of the setting away. The dragon was never meant to be fought directly by the PCs (or at least shouldn't be until they are rivals in power after a LONG campaign), it was there more as a vengeful and mysterious power that everyone fears and makes yearly offerings and sacrifices to. Everything in the damn tyr region fears this creature, including the assorted sorcerer kings (demi gods in their own right) who supposedly created him. In fact, in the 2nd book of the series Rikus goes to war with the City State of Urik using an entire army made from thousands of ex-slaves and is forced to retreat back home. His army almost takes the city, but then Humanu shows up and basically does to Rikus and his army what Sauron does to the elves and men in the opening scenes of LOTRs: Fellowship of the Ring. Borys (the Dragon) should have had Rikus killed before he even got off the wall. Really lame to have the most powerful creature on Athas (a virtual "God") go down with one hit (in the nose at that) from a impressive but mortal gladiator who is essentially a third of the dragon's level and no where near its capabiltites in power. Ok rant over. I feel a little better now.
Nate
In the Valley of Dust and Fire sourcebook there's a small part that describes the tactics of Borys if someone try to fight with him.
I recall that when I read them I think, there's no creature or anything that I saw on 2E that could kill him, he was unstopable.
If you have that book check that part, if not I'll see if I can post his tactics in the weekend.
Man I love Dark Sun for too much reasons.
Cazador
I recall that when I read them I think, there's no creature or anything that I saw on 2E that could kill him, he was unstopable.
If you have that book check that part, if not I'll see if I can post his tactics in the weekend.
Man I love Dark Sun for too much reasons.
Cazador
WanderingMonster
First Post
We loved playing Dark Sun. If we could get a 3e Hardcover setting book, we'd be playing it.
In my estimation the two things that need to be tweaked to truly get the Dark Sun feel are magic and psionics. Innovative uses of the d20 system need to be judiciously applied in those areas. If that happens, I'm sold.
In my estimation the two things that need to be tweaked to truly get the Dark Sun feel are magic and psionics. Innovative uses of the d20 system need to be judiciously applied in those areas. If that happens, I'm sold.
Bendris Noulg
First Post
Well, Athas.org is doing fairly well with the magic it would seem... Their Psionics I'm not to hip on (generally Core, with the DK Harbinger and Construct system converted in a manner I don't like).
Of course, I use their Ranger.
Of course, I use their Ranger.
Welverin
First Post
Re: Rant about the Dark Sun Dragon
A little nit pick, but you’re a little off on your assessment. Each level of Dragon is actually equivalent to a level of psionicist and one of defiler. That basically makes Borys a 30th level psionicist and defiler (for sixty levels total), and on top of that he has a nasty breath weapon (25d12), bite, claw, and tail attacks (4d12/2d10+15/5d10), 80% magic resistance, can only be harmed by +2 or better weapons, a –3 THAC0, and a –10 ac. Truly a badass’s badass.
Najo said:
A little nit pick, but you’re a little off on your assessment. Each level of Dragon is actually equivalent to a level of psionicist and one of defiler. That basically makes Borys a 30th level psionicist and defiler (for sixty levels total), and on top of that he has a nasty breath weapon (25d12), bite, claw, and tail attacks (4d12/2d10+15/5d10), 80% magic resistance, can only be harmed by +2 or better weapons, a –3 THAC0, and a –10 ac. Truly a badass’s badass.
Tactic on the Dragon of Tyr from Valley of Dust and Fire
Here ya go - Cazador
Fighting the Dragon
For most parties, confrontation with the Dragon means certain death. Make this explicitly clear to
players who are unaware of it. Try to stage the uneven battle with many opportunities for heroic death
scenes. A fighter might rush the Dragon and wound it bitterly as he dies; a mage might engulf
both herself and the enemy in a colossal fireball; a thief might backstab the Dragon, sacrificing himself
but distracting it at a critical moment so that a companion can escape. Let the characters damage the
Dragon severely; it can heal after they are dead, and it makes their passing more dramatic.
Tactics in an even contest: Campaigns using the Dragon Kings supplement may have characters
above 20th level. Conceivably a heavily armed and well-organized band of high-level characters could
match the Dragon™s power. These parties would take the Dragon by surprise; it never expects a mere
band of intruders to present a true threat! As soon as the party lands a significant blow,
though, the Dragon sees its mistake. It teleports elsewhere in the Sanctum (usually less than 1,000
yards away), to one of its many buried caches of potion fruits and treasures, takes as many potion fruits
of extra-healing as necessary to heal completely, activates its danger sense and other defenses, and de-
fines a teleport trigger that will take it to the opposite side of the Sanctum from the party when it is re-
duced to 25 hit points or less. Then the Dragon dons a ring of invisibility and inaudibility, takes a
wand and staff (roll randomly for type), and teleports within sight of the party. The whole operation
takes about five rounds.Now the Dragon inspects its opponents closely,searching for weakness or relaxation;
it may spend many rounds stalking the party this way (letting down most of its psionic defenses if it needs
to save PSPs). If the party seems ready to leave the City of Doom, the Dragon attacks to prevent this. When
ready to attack, it first telepathically calls in its kaisharga and a few companies of troops to wear the
party down. Then, when the party appears weakened, it attacks with life draining or death field, as
described in the Wanderer™s Journal entry.If the Dragon has gotten a wand of illusion, it us-
es it to good effect, creating an illusion of itself to draw the characters™ fire before revealing itself.
If you use the Dragon Kings supplement, the Dragon should also have several psionic enchant-
ments ready, such as dome of invulnerability or rift (to increase the strength of its kaisharga).
In any case, the Dragon fights to kill dangerous opponents, but never fights to its own death if it can
escape to fight another day. What if they win? Even in the unlikely event that
the PCs encounter and fight the Dragon, they should not be able to destroy it. If properly run, the
Dragon is able to defeat even a party of the highestlevel adventurers.The Dragon has had thousands of years to pre-
pare its defenses. It must have many contingency spells, and possibly clones, to ensure its survival.
The realm of psionic enchantment opens up still more amazing possibilities. You have many devices
to keep the Dragon aliveŠif you want to.Killing the Dragon is less an issue of firepower
than of campaign direction. Without the Dragon,the Tyr region™s balance of power changes com-
pletely. Unless the party demonstrates incontrovertibly that its power surpasses the Dragon™sŠan
unlikely caseŠchaos ensues. Sorcerer-kings forego the struggle for supremacy long enough to unite
against the player characters. Scenarios would be much different in this new world, now divorced from
the established DARK SUN Ž campaign background.Still, that may appeal to you and your players.
After all, if the issue arises, both players and DMhave clearly demonstrated a sense of adventure.
There is no other way to survive the Valley of Dust and Fire.
Here ya go - Cazador
Fighting the Dragon
For most parties, confrontation with the Dragon means certain death. Make this explicitly clear to
players who are unaware of it. Try to stage the uneven battle with many opportunities for heroic death
scenes. A fighter might rush the Dragon and wound it bitterly as he dies; a mage might engulf
both herself and the enemy in a colossal fireball; a thief might backstab the Dragon, sacrificing himself
but distracting it at a critical moment so that a companion can escape. Let the characters damage the
Dragon severely; it can heal after they are dead, and it makes their passing more dramatic.
Tactics in an even contest: Campaigns using the Dragon Kings supplement may have characters
above 20th level. Conceivably a heavily armed and well-organized band of high-level characters could
match the Dragon™s power. These parties would take the Dragon by surprise; it never expects a mere
band of intruders to present a true threat! As soon as the party lands a significant blow,
though, the Dragon sees its mistake. It teleports elsewhere in the Sanctum (usually less than 1,000
yards away), to one of its many buried caches of potion fruits and treasures, takes as many potion fruits
of extra-healing as necessary to heal completely, activates its danger sense and other defenses, and de-
fines a teleport trigger that will take it to the opposite side of the Sanctum from the party when it is re-
duced to 25 hit points or less. Then the Dragon dons a ring of invisibility and inaudibility, takes a
wand and staff (roll randomly for type), and teleports within sight of the party. The whole operation
takes about five rounds.Now the Dragon inspects its opponents closely,searching for weakness or relaxation;
it may spend many rounds stalking the party this way (letting down most of its psionic defenses if it needs
to save PSPs). If the party seems ready to leave the City of Doom, the Dragon attacks to prevent this. When
ready to attack, it first telepathically calls in its kaisharga and a few companies of troops to wear the
party down. Then, when the party appears weakened, it attacks with life draining or death field, as
described in the Wanderer™s Journal entry.If the Dragon has gotten a wand of illusion, it us-
es it to good effect, creating an illusion of itself to draw the characters™ fire before revealing itself.
If you use the Dragon Kings supplement, the Dragon should also have several psionic enchant-
ments ready, such as dome of invulnerability or rift (to increase the strength of its kaisharga).
In any case, the Dragon fights to kill dangerous opponents, but never fights to its own death if it can
escape to fight another day. What if they win? Even in the unlikely event that
the PCs encounter and fight the Dragon, they should not be able to destroy it. If properly run, the
Dragon is able to defeat even a party of the highestlevel adventurers.The Dragon has had thousands of years to pre-
pare its defenses. It must have many contingency spells, and possibly clones, to ensure its survival.
The realm of psionic enchantment opens up still more amazing possibilities. You have many devices
to keep the Dragon aliveŠif you want to.Killing the Dragon is less an issue of firepower
than of campaign direction. Without the Dragon,the Tyr region™s balance of power changes com-
pletely. Unless the party demonstrates incontrovertibly that its power surpasses the Dragon™sŠan
unlikely caseŠchaos ensues. Sorcerer-kings forego the struggle for supremacy long enough to unite
against the player characters. Scenarios would be much different in this new world, now divorced from
the established DARK SUN Ž campaign background.Still, that may appeal to you and your players.
After all, if the issue arises, both players and DMhave clearly demonstrated a sense of adventure.
There is no other way to survive the Valley of Dust and Fire.
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