What do you like in your RPG?
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EricNoah
Adventurer
What makes good sci-fi doesn't always make good fantasy; and what makes good fiction doesn't always make good RPG material.
Whoever said "subtle" w/regard to allegory - agreed. Allegory oversimplifies complex issues, and I think the complexities are the most interesting part. Allegories also try to tell you what to think, and in an RPG allowing and encouraging the player characters to act on beliefs and opinions are part and parcel of role playing.
Whoever said "subtle" w/regard to allegory - agreed. Allegory oversimplifies complex issues, and I think the complexities are the most interesting part. Allegories also try to tell you what to think, and in an RPG allowing and encouraging the player characters to act on beliefs and opinions are part and parcel of role playing.
Lhorgrim
Explorer
I am primarily looking for an RPG that let's me escape reality.
My real life job gives me all the "real world" conflicts and angst that I care to have. I prefer RPGs that bear little resemblance to my real life, so I don't really enjoy modern based games or games with a heavy focus on military or law enforcement.
I guess I'm the same way with my sci-fi. I understand that some people like to ponder some of the difficult issues of our times through their entertainment, but I need escape. I liked most of BSG, but some of the more "ripped from the headlines" episodes made me tune out. It's the same with Law and Order. It's too real, but at the same time there are so many points of literary license taken to get us to the conclusion in the alloted time that I can't take it seriously. I'm talking about stuff like getting a judge to sign a search warrant without any real probable cause so that the (anti?)hero can find the information in the suspects office to move the plot along.
My real life job gives me all the "real world" conflicts and angst that I care to have. I prefer RPGs that bear little resemblance to my real life, so I don't really enjoy modern based games or games with a heavy focus on military or law enforcement.
I guess I'm the same way with my sci-fi. I understand that some people like to ponder some of the difficult issues of our times through their entertainment, but I need escape. I liked most of BSG, but some of the more "ripped from the headlines" episodes made me tune out. It's the same with Law and Order. It's too real, but at the same time there are so many points of literary license taken to get us to the conclusion in the alloted time that I can't take it seriously. I'm talking about stuff like getting a judge to sign a search warrant without any real probable cause so that the (anti?)hero can find the information in the suspects office to move the plot along.
Moogleproof
First Post
Simply put:
In my games, I enjoy good plot/story, great roleplaying moments and dialogue, anthropology and consistency. I do not see the need for allegory, but difficult themes and moral dilemmas and tough situations get more out of the characters and of the whole experience, I find, than a simple dungeon crawl to fetch some gold. Though I have nothing against that, either. But the chance you have at the table with a half a dozen people acting a whole different persona is just too good to pass not to insert some hopefully insighful or controversial subject matter.
According to my experiences, Chrono22 is quite right saying people bring these motivations to games. I would like to say that I don't, that my motivations for playing are of somehow "purer" nature, but I doubt that would be entirely correct. I may come for different things, but completely shutting those things out Chrono22 mentions just doesn't happen. Or if it does on someone's part, I'm happy for them.
If the game is like a good movie (or a book), I am more than satisfied. But there are a lot of good type of books, so please don't ask me to be more specific, any good element will do in a game.
PS: I really appreciate good dialogue in movies and books and in fiction in general, and find it quite a shame that they are that much harder to achieve in RPGs. Often times it's just the jokes that come out naturally, but when someone needs to produce some solid lines in a serious situation, they tend to lack that oomph that makes protagonists in books and movies so special. But I'm ranting and went ways off allegory here...
In my games, I enjoy good plot/story, great roleplaying moments and dialogue, anthropology and consistency. I do not see the need for allegory, but difficult themes and moral dilemmas and tough situations get more out of the characters and of the whole experience, I find, than a simple dungeon crawl to fetch some gold. Though I have nothing against that, either. But the chance you have at the table with a half a dozen people acting a whole different persona is just too good to pass not to insert some hopefully insighful or controversial subject matter.
According to my experiences, Chrono22 is quite right saying people bring these motivations to games. I would like to say that I don't, that my motivations for playing are of somehow "purer" nature, but I doubt that would be entirely correct. I may come for different things, but completely shutting those things out Chrono22 mentions just doesn't happen. Or if it does on someone's part, I'm happy for them.
If the game is like a good movie (or a book), I am more than satisfied. But there are a lot of good type of books, so please don't ask me to be more specific, any good element will do in a game.
PS: I really appreciate good dialogue in movies and books and in fiction in general, and find it quite a shame that they are that much harder to achieve in RPGs. Often times it's just the jokes that come out naturally, but when someone needs to produce some solid lines in a serious situation, they tend to lack that oomph that makes protagonists in books and movies so special. But I'm ranting and went ways off allegory here...
delericho
Legend
Yes and no.
I like allegory. I build it into my settings and campaigns frequently. But what the PCs then do with it is up to the players. If they don't notice, or ignore it, then that's fine. If they latch onto it, then that's cool. If they run with it in a completely different direction from the one that I expected, that's really cool.
I also don't think that allegory is required for a good game. Indeed, a heavy-handed application of allegory can make for a worse game than if the group just got on with playing without it.
I suspect you're wrong on that front. Perhaps wrong is not the right word, just as allegory may not be the right word.
Lucas specifically studied Joseph Campbell's concept of the Heroes Journey form of story telling and followed that formula in space. There was a very specific intent in the way star wars was written. Additionally, it was an homage to the classic movie serials. There's a lot going on in Star Wars, and much of it was intentional and more complex than "just a good old fashion space opera." I say this, and I am not even a star wars fan, but I recognize the very deliberate design of the film.
Good science fiction usually tells a morale lesson or historical lesson. Avatar's was an allegorical tale of what America did to the native americans, and how when one lives among a culture, one tends to go native and rebel against predation against the conquerers. It's an obvious story, but still an applicable one.
I liken allegory to "it's like historical situation X, except in D&D" or "it's like this story, except in D&D" as a movie pitch. The form is that you are taking something familiar and repainting it.
changing gears off of allegory...which CAN be a good trait of an adventure, I like characters in my RPGs.
I like it when the PCs and NPCs are likable (and despicable) and that the players have real emotions for them. Thus, they truly are concerned over their PCs or NPCs they have grown to like as real people. And they have real anger or hatred toward enemies you have fostered that feeling in.
I don't like it if the PC just feel like pawns on a board, or the NPCs are faceless nobodies.
I don't know about that...if you're reading an allegory, the author is telling you what HE thinks through his characters. That doesn't mean YOU are being told what to think, though as you emphathize with his characters your thinking may shift. That's the nature of any interaction with humans. I think it is a fallacy to say that when you read my book, I am telling you what to think, though I am certainly trying to make an appeal to you to consider my viewpoint.
However, to couch all that, in an RPG where the PC is the character, the allegory has to operate in a different way.
In a movie, the protagonist gets written to learn from the natives and become a part of their culture, and to later defend it. (Ala "Dances with Blue-Cat-People")
In an RPG, the PCs may get sent to visit the natives, but what happens next is still up to the PCs. When the PCs meet up with their boss again, what do they do? Obviously, the GM can try to make them empathize with the natives (just as the screenplay writer tries to do), but the final call is up to the player.
I think that allegory in RPGs can be used to setup a situation, but the choices to "do the right thing" is up to the players. In fact, that's the beauty of it. The DM makes his case by setting the stage and engendering empathy in the players, and the players decide how THEY want it to turn out.
Silvercat Moonpaw
Adventurer
For me, this.
Ed_Laprade
Adventurer
"Kill 'em all and take their stuff." Is allagorical of what?
"Allegory" is an overly limiting concept here. But one of the strengths of speculative fiction does lie in the freedom it affords in the exploration of ideas. This can be allegorical, but it can also just be futurist, alternative, or hypothetical.
For example, I doubt there was a single reader of science fiction who was confuddled by the ethics of cloning when Dolly was successfully cloned. Large portions of the rest of the population were thrown into a panic created by a mixture of ignorance and lack of forethought. And while science fiction may be terrible at predicting the future (although no moreso than any other attempts to predict the future), it serves as a constant source of inspiration for the technologies and revolutions that shape and shift our lives.
Long story short: Speculative fiction offers the opportunity to tell any story you can possibly tell in every other genre of fiction. It can also tell a whole bunch of stories that you can't tell in any other genre of fiction. The idea that the entire genre should be subjugated to a gutter of allegory seems fairly weak.
For example, I doubt there was a single reader of science fiction who was confuddled by the ethics of cloning when Dolly was successfully cloned. Large portions of the rest of the population were thrown into a panic created by a mixture of ignorance and lack of forethought. And while science fiction may be terrible at predicting the future (although no moreso than any other attempts to predict the future), it serves as a constant source of inspiration for the technologies and revolutions that shape and shift our lives.
Long story short: Speculative fiction offers the opportunity to tell any story you can possibly tell in every other genre of fiction. It can also tell a whole bunch of stories that you can't tell in any other genre of fiction. The idea that the entire genre should be subjugated to a gutter of allegory seems fairly weak.
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