What do you think is wrong with rituals?

[Tony Vargas]

1) Rituals aren't on power cards. People decide what they are going to do in 4e by looking at their power cards, not their character sheets. I've handed out plenty of rituals, but since they aren't on their cards my players forget about them. I've taken to printing out their rituals that I hand out as treasure for them, which seems to help somewhat.

Actually, you can get them to print out on cards, but they lack critical pieces of information, like component cost and casting time!

2) Players are used to only two actions in D&D, skill check and attack.[/B] If they can't attack it, its a skill check. If it isn't a skill check, you attack it. They aren't used to rituals being another option.

Those rituals whose effects are in doubt at all /do/ use skill checks. Those that don't still have key skills.


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4) Rituals aren't in the treasure tables. Whenever I've been a player in 4e, the DM has never handed out rituals. Why? Quite simply because they aren't in the treasure tables. They hand out treasure out by the book.

Have to agree, here. Rituals are expensive and situational. You're not going to see players investing in scrolls or in rituals close to their own level, they're only attractive when they become 'cheap' enough relative to magic items (including consumables) that you can keep some around 'just in case.' You have to give those out as treasure if you want to see them used at all.

 

[nightspaladin]

I think the healing surge idea has a lot of merit. It also simulates the fact that the rituals are taxing on the caster. Go watch Conan the Barbarian again. When Akiro casts Raise Dead on Conan, it is literally a fight. They are exhausted and beaten at the end. This could be done as a skill challenge, which is an interesting way to create more player interaction from the rest of the party. It can also be represented by loss of Healing Surges.

The only problem with healing surge loss is that rituals on days when no combat is expected is now trivial and it encourages a shorter work day. The latter can be take care of by good DM pacing and urgency that prevents the players from resting quickly after firing off multiple rituals.

As a brainstorming idea, how should the component to healing surge cost conversion go? How much is blood(healing surges) worth compared to components to fuel magic?

 

[Psikerlord#]

I think a ritual caster should be able to cast one ritual per day for no cost (or greatly reduced cost, like a quarter). I also think a ritual caster should automatically learn a new ritual for free every stat boost level (ie 4th, 8th, etc). That way they can use them more often and will have a least a handful of useful rituals on their books, even if no-one in the party wants to spend gold on them.

 

[Tony Vargas]

I can't agree with the healing surge idea. The problem is that rituals see too little use. Surges are strictly limitted daily resources. So, it makes rituals less likely to see use durring adventures. Conversely, it opens up systematic use of rituals durring downtime, which the current component costs help discourage.

 

[Alasomorph]

Thanks Tony, I never knew Ritual cards were available from the Character Builder.

For those of you out there as stupid as me, go to the character sheet and enable "Show Normal Item Cards". You can individually hide cards by right clicking and selecting "Hide".

Its not perfect (no costs, casting times or components), but its better than nothing. Lets hope for an update on this in the future.

 

[napoleonbuff]

I allow a free ritual use for each milestone reached.

 

[Ryujin]

I can't agree with the healing surge idea. The problem is that rituals see too little use. Surges are strictly limitted daily resources. So, it makes rituals less likely to see use durring adventures. Conversely, it opens up systematic use of rituals durring downtime, which the current component costs help discourage.

I have to agree. The only time that I think something like a Healing Surge mechanic should be included in a Ritual, would be for the Rituals that are inherently spammable or have a high possibility for abuse.

 

[Nork]

I think rituals are a very good idea, but I think they don't fit into the system correctly yet. I don't think it is really the fault of rituals either.

Rituals cost gold, and magic items cost gold. Rituals are fleeting and non-combat, while magic items are a lasting combat upgrade. Actually, IMO this is really a problem of magic items/combat upgrades costing gold, and not a problem with rituals costing gold.

By spending gold on roleplaying or fleeting non-combat advantages, players are by definition "gimping their character" at combat. God forbid the viking raider character spend all their money on ale and whores, it is going to make their character suck at crushing his enemies, seeing them driven before him, and hearing the lamentation of their women. No, they should be penny pinching instead so they can buy gear like a good little multi-class investment banker/blood thirsty barbarian.

Also, if the players stumble across a big pile of gold, they just know they won't be allowed to keep it no matter how clever they are at trying to do so. They know the GM isn't going to let them because it will make the game mechanically imbalanced because the players managed to get rich, and rich equals good at combat.

Conversely, players know the GM is never going to steal all of their gold no matter how stupid or careless they are with it, because it will likewise mechanically imbalance the game.

Instead of the wealth of characters being part of the plot and story of a campaign, it becomes a combat balance issue. A group of adventurers seeking fame and their careful allotment of level appropriate gold to be spent at Magic-Mart for combat upgrades.

Basically I think what is wrong with rituals is that magic items cost gold.