D&D 4E What do you think of the 4E background to demons & devils?

[Zogmo]

I voted loved it.

It's how I've already got my campaign world set up. So no changes for me.

 

[RPG_Tweaker]

It strangely mirrors my own demon/devil history and motivations.

As for the change to the structure of the planes... I dig it so much better than the Great Wheel. I disliked that monstrosity as soon as I read about it in 1E PHB.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Wotc is tampering with success for no objective reason that is apparent. If this "new hotness" is supposed to attract a new generation of gamers, I have not heard a reason why this is so nor why the prior treatment could not do so as well. What we have then is "because we say so" change. Some will salute and cheer. Others will ponder why a joyful noise is superior to a clear articulation of objective reasoning.

Others will wonder why people are treating this with the gravity of tone usually reserved for events like the reinstatement of slavery.

 

[Mortellan]

Wow. I agree with Mona's sentiments on this one and offer some condolences to the hard work over the years paizo did. The Demonomicon and FC1 were very successful with the 3.E crowd, now with this poll's results and other threads on the topic, I'm seeing what has to amount to some flipflopping (to put it nicely).

 

[Mouseferatu]

now with this poll's results and other threads on the topic, I'm seeing what has to amount to some flipflopping (to put it nicely).

Nonsense.

I love the Demonomicon articles, and the Fiendish Codex books.

I also really like what I've heard about the new cosmology, and was never more than mildly fond of the Great Wheel.

There's no flip-flop there. There's no change of mind. I can like X, and I can like Y, even if X and Y don't mesh well and probably won't always work together in the same setting.

I love Eberron, and I love Dark Sun, and I love Al-Qadim, and I love Ravenloft, but I'd never try to mix them all into the same setting.

 

[danbuter1]

I loved the Demonomicon stuff. And I loved Planescape. I wish WotC would stick with it.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

On the Demon side, I could use some more dimensionality than "kill! kill!". That gets boring too after a while. And why don't they care about souls? Maybe they don't want to collect souls, but surely they'd like to destroy souls, and if the only way to destroy a soul is to corrupt it (souls can't be gutted or ripped like flesh), surely there are some demons who take this up as a hobby? It's subtler work than simply tearing things apart, but can't demons be subtle when they choose to be? I can easily imagine a demon spirit taking over a King's mind (like Saruman took over Theoden); I mean, why destroy just one man when you can issue orders and brew feuds that destroy entire Kingdoms? That's a win, baby!

You know, I'm just not sure where people are getting the idea that the role demons now have is "all murder, all the time." Yeah, they're violent brutes. Perhaps they're violent brutes who vary between "dumb as a post" and "godlike intellect," and the latter are plotting a way to smash all the planes into the elemental vortex and gleefully destroy everything in the universe...a plan that could take eons to bring together. Just because their motivations are, at the core, destruction for the sake of destruction, doesn't mean that they're going to be pigeonholed any worse than demons already were in previous editions.

The same idea behind the "points of light" campaign setting (lots of gaps for DM's to fill in) should apply to cosmology design too. I don't want to be forced to choose between "Ethereal demi-plane" and "Astral dominion." Have a "DM's option" option built right into the cosmology.

By Jove! I think he's got it!

 

[airwalkrr]

I don't know whether I like it or hate it, because it sounds pretty much like the demons and devils I have already known for years. Sure, they tinkered with the origins a bit, but nothing drastic. Sounds like simply a new spin on a very old concept. I doubt it will make much difference in the grand scheme of things.

 

[mhacdebhandia]

I loved the Demonomicon stuff. And I loved Planescape. I wish WotC would stick with it.

Here's a tension which I think that Wizards of the Coast will have to do some hard thinking to resolve when and if they want to publish material about the Great Wheel again:

The "Demonomicon" articles were written by James Jacobs. James and Erik Mona and others in the "Paizo crew" are big fans of Greyhawk, and that's the major reason why they are motivated to write such excellent things about the Great Wheel cosmology: because it's the Greyhawk cosmology and, to them, the D&D cosmology.

Planescape, on the other hand, for all that it used and expanded the Great Wheel, was also pretty much a revolutionary overhaul of the Great Wheel. I don't think I'm making too great a leap of logic to say that James, Erik, and co. don't particularly care for Planescape, its approach to the planes, or the changes it forced upon them - despite the good work they did in reconciling the Planescape/Second Edition and Greyhawk/First Edition "visions" of the Infinite Layers of the Abyss, I clearly recall Erik's expressing relief that he wasn't tasked with doing the same for the Nine Hells of Baator.

(It seems obvious, to me anyway, that the "Paizo crew" mostly care about Planescape's contribution from the point of view of maintaining continuity across editions.)

So here's the thing:

I don't think the idea of a Greyhawk Campaign Setting sourcebook which revives the Great Wheel cosmology will be all that compatible with the hopes and expectations of Planescape fans, or vice-versa.

If nothing else, a setting which views the Great Wheel as a backdrop for the world of Oerth is very different from one which views Oerth as something of a crossroads/battleground/pawn of the planes.

One solution which I could see as working would be to harmonise the two: position Oerth as the "home base" for a campaign setting which incorporates both "planetary" and "planar" adventures, including "alternate worlds" (best as Alternate Material Planes to Oerth's Prime Material Plane, rather than, say, the Spelljammer crystal spheres-on-one-Material Plane model) as well as planar locations suitable for adventuring across the range of levels.

If it were explicit that alternate worlds have traffic with Oerth as well as with the planes, you might be able to forge a compromise between the needs of an "Oerthly" setting favoured by Greyhawk fans and a planar setting favoured by Planescape fans.

It would mean "delocalising" Greyhawk to some extent, as well as partially diluting the "crossroads of worlds" aspect of Sigil and other planar locations, but I can't think of a better way to satisfy both camps attached to the Great Wheel . . . can you?

 

[Keefe the Thief]

I like it. I already know the Great Wheel inside out. That they try something really new for the 4e implied Core Setting is cool for 2 reasons:

- it gives me an interesting interpretation of the planes which i can or cannot use for my games as i need it in my games. Same for demons/devils.

- it shows a lot of guts to change the game so deeply. What D&D needs more is designers who break some eggs now end then, if you get my meaning. Innovation is not automatically cool. But i can ignore the crap and accept the cool stuff coming out.
Oh, and about 'tradition': D&D, as the worlds biggest RPG, has hundreds of books full of traditional concepts. Time to fill new books with new stuff. YMMV.