D&D 4E What do you think of the 4E background to demons & devils?

[Imaro]

IMHO, the change is kind of trite...now my oppinion could change given the specifics, but as it stands now I've already played in this cosmology with one of the more popular games on the market. Exalted. I was really hoping for something original (of course IMHO, the Great Wheel was a more original cosmology).

Basically, as I said in another thread to me Demons=Neverborn and Yozis=Devils. I guess if you haven't played Exalted this would seem like a very cool cosmology, but it really doesn't excite me at this point. I find the changes to the hobgoblins more original than this. YMMV of course.

I would have actually liked D&D to embrace alignment on a more philosophical level( Yes, I am a Planescape fan). This would have been cool, if they had went even further with the idea of belief in certain philosophies actually shaping all of exsistence. This also would have been a great plot device for a multitude of different mini cosmologies based on the beliefs of the inhabitants. Perhaps the only thing that actually connects the different cosmologies is the Astral Plane and there really are an infinite number of versions of deities, demons, even PC's themselves. It also means in the end the PC's really have the power to change anything.

 

[Corathon]

Where I'm coming from: I like the Great Wheel picture, and I like alignment just fine. I'm no fan of Planescape.

There are hints as far back as 1E that at least some devils were fallen angels. In my campaign, the first devils were exactly that, and they tend to be subtle seducers and corruptors, while demons tend toward destruction for the joy of it. So that part of the change squares with what I already do in my home game. This is a just generalization, though, and leaves plenty of room for scheming greater demons and demon lords and for brutally violent devils, of course.

But, IMC, all of the major races of the Outer Planes are interested in souls. The whole "demons are corrupted elementals" thing is very Talislanta, but not very appealing to me. And its ironic that demons are Tharizdun's tools in 4E, when they were the force of evil most opposed to him in Gygax's take (because, as creatures of chaos, they didn't want to knuckle under to his rule).

All in all, I'm slightly on the negative side.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

And I'm gonna put something out here: I admit I've only read about the first 12 pages of the Fiendish Codex for the Abyss. But there doesn't seem to be anything in there that's invalidated by this. That whole "Tharizdun threw the evil seed in the Tempest and now's it's the Abyss" thing? That could easily be, on behalf of the gods, what we like to call "a lie". Because "Oh, the Abyss? Yeah, our fault, by-product of making the world" doesn't sound as divine and confidence-inspiring as "Oh, the Abyss? Yeah, Tharizdun made it because he's evil. Go find one of his followers and hit him in the face, k?"

Heh heh. I love it.

Exactly. And Black House is a Dark Tower tie-in, right?

Yep, and a nominal sequel to The Talisman. Definitely a good read for this sort of scary demon, whose primary modus operandi is decidedly not "run into town and start killing folks at random."

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

And a thought on daemons/yugoloths:

Yeah, they're an alignment construct and if they're going to be kept around, it should be because they're interesting. Currently, if not for their traditional alien appearances, most of them sound like devils, which I don't think anyone really would get excited about. So I'm OK with waiting for most of them, until such time as a really cool idea of how to present them appears.

That said, I think Charon and his group of daemons are pretty cool, and with the astral being called a "sea" now, the notion of fiendish boatmen traveling the multiverse, offering to take you to strange realms "for a modest fee" is pretty appealing. It gives them a reason to show up in lots of campaigns -- not just ones set in a specific set of planes -- and makes what they have to offer a lot more appealing, which gives them more power.

 

[Mouseferatu]

Yeah, they're an alignment construct and if they're going to be kept around, it should be because they're interesting. Currently, if not for their traditional alien appearances, most of them sound like devils, which I don't think anyone really would get excited about. So I'm OK with waiting for most of them, until such time as a really cool idea of how to present them appears.

Well, if devils are fallen angels, and demons are (ahem) elemental evil, 'loths could be:

1) The most comprehensible of horrors from beyond the known worlds (i.e. Far Realms), though this might actually be a better background for slaad and/or demodands

2) Primal evils that predate the creation of the demons or the fall of the devils

3) Beings created to serve evil gods/an evil god

4) Natives of the Astral Sea that roam the regions between dominions

5) A corruption of one of the other planes (like the Feywild, perhaps), in the same way demons are a corruption of the Elemental Tempest

And that's just off the top of my head. IOW, there are plenty of ways to work 'em in.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Well, if devils are fallen angels, and demons are (ahem) elemental evil, 'loths could be:

1) The most comprehensible of horrors from beyond the known worlds (i.e. Far Realms), though this might actually be a better background for slaad and/or demodands

2) Primal evils that predate the creation of the demons or the fall of the devils

3) Beings created to serve evil gods/an evil god

4) Natives of the Astral Sea that roam the regions between dominions

5) A corruption of one of the other planes (like the Feywild, perhaps), in the same way demons are a corruption of the Elemental Tempest

And that's just off the top of my head. IOW, there are plenty of ways to work 'em in.

Thinking about this, and about the comments you responded to, I think that while 'loths and devils both have the "plotting" thing going, they can easily be separated. Devils are after souls. All their plotting is about getting souls, and getting out of their prison. Yugoloths are plotting after...? Something. They have incredibly intricate plots, are manipulating events behind the scenes, ensuring that seemingly unrelated events occur, for reasons that no one can figure out. It's as though they see some extremely complicated interconnectivity in the universe that no one else can, and they're working patiently to bring about some future end. And considering that they're obviously bad guys, it's probably not one that anyone else will like. But how can you stop them if you don't even know what they're after?

I think that ties in well to your suggestion re; the Far Realms. If you did find out what they were planning, you'd go mad.

 

[Khur]

You should have said that in the article. It would have saved about six pages of this thread from happening, I think.

Why would I want to keep this thread from happening?



One can only say so much at one time. Some form of this thread would have happened no matter what—perhaps just like your inevitable retcon.

Anyhow, Erik, I think it'll be really easy for people to keep the Great Wheel and the great stuff such as what you and others wrote in the Fiendish Codices. And I'm glad at least the cosmology is "a lot less odious than [you'd] been fearing, truth be told."

 

[Glyfair]

You should have said that in the article. It would have saved about six pages of this thread from happening, I think.

You don't spend much time on the internet, do you?

(I think you mean the other related thread, as well. I'm not sure we can do -3 pages of thread on ENWorld. If we can, I think ENWorld will become the planes in 5th edition).

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

You don't spend much time on the internet, do you?

(I think you mean the other related thread, as well. I'm not sure we can do -3 pages of thread on ENWorld. If we can, I think ENWorld will become the planes in 5th edition).

So does that make us deities? I call dibs on Arborea!

 

[Shemeska]

He can have his place in the Abyss, right alongside Lolth (but below her, since she's a deity)

I was hoping in 4e we'd finally be getting past the archfiend/god false dichotomy of 3e. Of course we finally had hints of that lately given how much Lolth got exploited and made a fool of by Graz'zt in Expedition to the Demonweb Pits.

We're back to god>archfiend. That's really unfortunate.